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This comment was originally left on Missionary Ron Ramos Explains Why He Left the WMSCOG After 12 Years – A Former Member's Story
The True WMSCOG writes:
http://www.thetruewmscog.com/hassan-and-the-wmscog/
Come see the discrepancies in Hassan's and Ron's statements.
144000 wrote:
Then he goes on to say they weren't allowed to have eternal life.
That is a lie, I know black members from back then who were given eternal life and preached it to me when I joined.
I am confused. What exactly does that mean? As I mentioned to you before, I am asking because I don't want to speculate.
144000 wrote:
Renita:
There is a reason I mentioned Christmas idols but did not mention any birthday idols, you should go back and read to learn the difference.
There are no birthday idols to mention. There are no Christmas idols either. A noun only becomes an idol once it's worshipped. It's not an idol because someone else worshipped it. If a member was praying to a picture of Zahng, that picture becomes an idol. Hypothetically speaking, which isn't really hypothetical, would all the pictures of Zahng be removed from the church or would that one person just be rebuked? I say it's not really hypothetical because I know a sister who made a big deal about her prayer times when she was home. She put the pictures of Ash and Zahng on the east wall of her bedroom so when she got on her knees before the pictures she would pray toward South Korea.
144000 wrote:
Renita:
There is a reason I mentioned Christmas idols but did not mention any birthday idols, you should go back and read to learn the difference.
There are no birthday idols to mention. There are no Christmas idols either. A noun only becomes an idol once it's worshipped. It's not an idol because someone else worshipped it. If a member was praying to a picture of Zahng, that picture becomes an idol. Hypothetically speaking, which isn't really hypothetical, would all the pictures of Zahng be removed from the church or would that one person just be rebuked? I say it's not really hypothetical because I know a sister who made a big deal about her prayer times when she was home. She put the pictures of Ash and Zahng on the east wall of her bedroom so when she got on her knees before the pictures she would pray toward South Korea.
144000 wrote:
I do not know off of the top of my head Genny, but such topics which are tangential to the truth of Passover and the prophecies, are not a pressing concern to me for one simple reason.
144000, thank you for your calm manner in discussing this with me.
These little things may sound tangential and unimportant, but many little things put together become a big deal. Especially when the mistakes are from someone who's supposed to be God.
God said he covered the whole earth with a flood and destroyed everything and everyone.
Yet Anak existed before the flood, and the descendents of Anak survived the flood.
Which verse says that Anak existed before the flood and survived?
Also many nations survived the flood and were visited by Noah's family immediately after they got off the boat, even a multitude of nations with different languages.
What Bible are you using? What verses tell this in the Bible?
Furthermore God is faithful to his promses, so it is indeed right to say he would have honored his word and spared anyone who followed his instructions.
Yes, I believe God would have spared anyone following His directions at the first Passover. But the point is the Bible doesn't mention that any Egyptians did and in fact says the opposite. You can speculate that it may have been hyperbole, but it is a speculation. To say definitively that any were spared is still adding to the Bible.
What Father said was the truth.
That's debateable.
144000 wrote:
I do not know off of the top of my head Genny, but such topics which are tangential to the truth of Passover and the prophecies, are not a pressing concern to me for one simple reason.
144000, thank you for your calm manner in discussing this with me.
These little things may sound tangential and unimportant, but many little things put together become a big deal. Especially when the mistakes are from someone who's supposed to be God.
God said he covered the whole earth with a flood and destroyed everything and everyone.
Yet Anak existed before the flood, and the descendents of Anak survived the flood.
Which verse says that Anak existed before the flood and survived?
Also many nations survived the flood and were visited by Noah's family immediately after they got off the boat, even a multitude of nations with different languages.
What Bible are you using? What verses tell this in the Bible?
Furthermore God is faithful to his promses, so it is indeed right to say he would have honored his word and spared anyone who followed his instructions.
Yes, I believe God would have spared anyone following His directions at the first Passover. But the point is the Bible doesn't mention that any Egyptians did and in fact says the opposite. You can speculate that it may have been hyperbole, but it is a speculation. To say definitively that any were spared is still adding to the Bible.
What Father said was the truth.
That's debateable.
144000 wrote:
Questioninginla:
But didn't you JUST say "after speaking with Steve"? It isn't a great leap of logic to claim that Ron was influenced by Steve and his Bite model. In fact, that he was persuaded into telling that many lies suggests that "his own research" played no part in him being able to tell a true story.
It's like watching a parrot with this one, someone correct me if I'm way out there on the fringe.
I'll rip apart more leaps of logic by The True WMSCOG ("True") if you ask. Starting with video #1: It is an ad hominem attack on Hassan that does absolutely nothing to refute his expertise in the field*. Further, True uses Dr. Mann's damaging review on Amazon to discredit Hassan; this is known as a Red Herring due to the fact that the expertise in the field is not addressed (Dr. Mann's criticism is that Hassan's 3rd book does not really add to anything in Hassan's previous two books). True does not investigate the aspect of controlling groups, what they are, and how they operate; True only attacks Hassan and hopes that no one will notice that Dr. Mann does not debunk Hassan's expertise in the slightest vis a vis critical review of "Combatting" or "Releasing" (books 1 & 2).
Hassan's BITE model falls somewhere between helpful and a differentiating marketing tool – I don't know which. Friends and family that first discover that their loved ones need help can find answers in the BITE model. As we have seen with the attacks on BITE, it can be overgeneralized to fit. At its core it is pretty accurate, but at the end of the day the tenets of thought reform are generally the same whether one subscribes to Hassan, Mann, Ross, Singer, Lifton, Cialdini, Lalich, et al.
*following her thread on Amazon, she is critical of Hassan's SIA, and paraphrasing here, is that she believes it is unproven. The SIA and Hassan's "cult knowledge" are mutually exclusive concepts. She is critical of Hassan's techniques, statistical claims in exits (ie, not documented), and claims to expertise that provide Hassan with a marketing edge that she feels is unearned and should be a professional courtesy to be publicly displayed. (all paraphrased). All that being said, the underlying assumption is that Hassan knows the discipline; Dr. Mann is critical of the way in which Hassan markets himself and presents himself to the public. Alas there are plenty of examples for fresh parents & loved ones paying fees to find in Hassan's books how he got them out! I do wonder if he realizes how much he comes across as The Mr. Cult Savior Guy when people are in such a leveraged position with their emotions.
144000 wrote:
Questioninginla:
But didn't you JUST say "after speaking with Steve"? It isn't a great leap of logic to claim that Ron was influenced by Steve and his Bite model. In fact, that he was persuaded into telling that many lies suggests that "his own research" played no part in him being able to tell a true story.
It's like watching a parrot with this one, someone correct me if I'm way out there on the fringe.
I'll rip apart more leaps of logic by The True WMSCOG ("True") if you ask. Starting with video #1: It is an ad hominem attack on Hassan that does absolutely nothing to refute his expertise in the field*. Further, True uses Dr. Mann's damaging review on Amazon to discredit Hassan; this is known as a Red Herring due to the fact that the expertise in the field is not addressed (Dr. Mann's criticism is that Hassan's 3rd book does not really add to anything in Hassan's previous two books). True does not investigate the aspect of controlling groups, what they are, and how they operate; True only attacks Hassan and hopes that no one will notice that Dr. Mann does not debunk Hassan's expertise in the slightest vis a vis critical review of "Combatting" or "Releasing" (books 1 & 2).
Hassan's BITE model falls somewhere between helpful and a differentiating marketing tool – I don't know which. Friends and family that first discover that their loved ones need help can find answers in the BITE model. As we have seen with the attacks on BITE, it can be overgeneralized to fit. At its core it is pretty accurate, but at the end of the day the tenets of thought reform are generally the same whether one subscribes to Hassan, Mann, Ross, Singer, Lifton, Cialdini, Lalich, et al.
*following her thread on Amazon, she is critical of Hassan's SIA, and paraphrasing here, is that she believes it is unproven. The SIA and Hassan's "cult knowledge" are mutually exclusive concepts. She is critical of Hassan's techniques, statistical claims in exits (ie, not documented), and claims to expertise that provide Hassan with a marketing edge that she feels is unearned and should be a professional courtesy to be publicly displayed. (all paraphrased). All that being said, the underlying assumption is that Hassan knows the discipline; Dr. Mann is critical of the way in which Hassan markets himself and presents himself to the public. Alas there are plenty of examples for fresh parents & loved ones paying fees to find in Hassan's books how he got them out! I do wonder if he realizes how much he comes across as The Mr. Cult Savior Guy when people are in such a leveraged position with their emotions.
They don't need a bible if it comes from Ash or Zahng.. According to the Scripture, nothing survived the flood except that which was in the ark.
They don't need a bible if it comes from Ash or Zahng.. According to the Scripture, nothing survived the flood except that which was in the ark.
144000 wrote:
Didn't I just done saying Reseda is not the place with a black Missionary?
Our Zions know the names and ranks of all the "early day" black members.
But please, support Ron's lie more, tell us more about how there were no black members "at all"?
Tell us more that in the early days blacks couldn't have eternal life, so I can have a big laugh with all my brothers who were in the truth back then. Dig deeper, you still haven't hit the bottom yet.
"In the truth" LMAO. "Our Zions".
144000 wrote:
Didn't I just done saying Reseda is not the place with a black Missionary?
Our Zions know the names and ranks of all the "early day" black members.
But please, support Ron's lie more, tell us more about how there were no black members "at all"?
Tell us more that in the early days blacks couldn't have eternal life, so I can have a big laugh with all my brothers who were in the truth back then. Dig deeper, you still haven't hit the bottom yet.
"In the truth" LMAO. "Our Zions".
Jesus of Nazareth wrote:
144000 wrote:
Didn't I just done saying Reseda is not the place with a black Missionary?
Our Zions know the names and ranks of all the "early day" black members.
But please, support Ron's lie more, tell us more about how there were no black members "at all"?
Tell us more that in the early days blacks couldn't have eternal life, so I can have a big laugh with all my brothers who were in the truth back then. Dig deeper, you still haven't hit the bottom yet.
"In the truth" LMAO. "Our Zions".
Lol… Too funny, JN.
Jesus of Nazareth wrote:
144000 wrote:
Didn't I just done saying Reseda is not the place with a black Missionary?
Our Zions know the names and ranks of all the "early day" black members.
But please, support Ron's lie more, tell us more about how there were no black members "at all"?
Tell us more that in the early days blacks couldn't have eternal life, so I can have a big laugh with all my brothers who were in the truth back then. Dig deeper, you still haven't hit the bottom yet.
"In the truth" LMAO. "Our Zions".
Lol… Too funny, JN.
Questioninginla wrote:
All that being said, the underlying assumption is that Hassan knows the discipline; Dr. Mann is critical of the way in which Hassan markets himself and presents himself to the public. Alas there are plenty of examples for fresh parents & loved ones paying fees to find in Hassan's books how he got them out! I do wonder if he realizes how much he comes across as The Mr. Cult Savior Guy when people are in such a leveraged position with their emotions.
So does the wmscog.
Regarding the last sentence, Hassan at least is accused of using the existing emotions as leverage. With the WMSCOG, they create the emotion first by ruthlessly attacking the subject's beliefs from their earlier church with a whole load of falsehoods.
Questioninginla wrote:
All that being said, the underlying assumption is that Hassan knows the discipline; Dr. Mann is critical of the way in which Hassan markets himself and presents himself to the public. Alas there are plenty of examples for fresh parents & loved ones paying fees to find in Hassan's books how he got them out! I do wonder if he realizes how much he comes across as The Mr. Cult Savior Guy when people are in such a leveraged position with their emotions.
So does the wmscog.
Regarding the last sentence, Hassan at least is accused of using the existing emotions as leverage. With the WMSCOG, they create the emotion first by ruthlessly attacking the subject's beliefs from their earlier church with a whole load of falsehoods.
emil wrote:
Questioninginla wrote:
All that being said, the underlying assumption is that Hassan knows the discipline; Dr. Mann is critical of the way in which Hassan markets himself and presents himself to the public. Alas there are plenty of examples for fresh parents & loved ones paying fees to find in Hassan's books how he got them out! I do wonder if he realizes how much he comes across as The Mr. Cult Savior Guy when people are in such a leveraged position with their emotions.
So does the wmscog.
Regarding the last sentence, Hassan at least is accused of using the existing emotions as leverage. With the WMSCOG, they create the emotion first by ruthlessly attacking the subject's beliefs from their earlier church with a whole load of falsehoods.
Well put Emil!
If you want to know about Steve Hassan, why not ask someone who knows him and has worked with him, do we have anyone like that here? Oh yeah, ME! Steve Hassan is not the devil!!! He is a soft spoken, mild mannered, gentle human being. He is passionate about his work and more importantly he cares deeply about the people he is working with. He is "Mr. Cult Savior Guy"! He saved my family (with help from 3 other awesome people) Steve is an honest guy and for the record, money was never a priority for him. In fact, I happen to know he does a lot of pro bono work as well. Yes, I paid him but I also made him sleep in a "Mormon owned" hotel one night. I didn't know the Mormons owned Marriott
I have to thank the wms for those wonderful propaganda video's about Steve, especially "putting on the full armor of god" but I will not tell them why it works against them. (keep the video's coming Dano, your doing a helluva job shooting yourself in the foot)
emil wrote:
Questioninginla wrote:
All that being said, the underlying assumption is that Hassan knows the discipline; Dr. Mann is critical of the way in which Hassan markets himself and presents himself to the public. Alas there are plenty of examples for fresh parents & loved ones paying fees to find in Hassan's books how he got them out! I do wonder if he realizes how much he comes across as The Mr. Cult Savior Guy when people are in such a leveraged position with their emotions.
So does the wmscog.
Regarding the last sentence, Hassan at least is accused of using the existing emotions as leverage. With the WMSCOG, they create the emotion first by ruthlessly attacking the subject's beliefs from their earlier church with a whole load of falsehoods.
Well put Emil!
If you want to know about Steve Hassan, why not ask someone who knows him and has worked with him, do we have anyone like that here? Oh yeah, ME! Steve Hassan is not the devil!!! He is a soft spoken, mild mannered, gentle human being. He is passionate about his work and more importantly he cares deeply about the people he is working with. He is "Mr. Cult Savior Guy"! He saved my family (with help from 3 other awesome people) Steve is an honest guy and for the record, money was never a priority for him. In fact, I happen to know he does a lot of pro bono work as well. Yes, I paid him but I also made him sleep in a "Mormon owned" hotel one night. I didn't know the Mormons owned Marriott
I have to thank the wms for those wonderful propaganda video's about Steve, especially "putting on the full armor of god" but I will not tell them why it works against them. (keep the video's coming Dano, your doing a helluva job shooting yourself in the foot)
I think Mr Hassan has excellent credentials to speak about cults. Who better to speak about cults than someone who experienced it himself. WMSCOG tried to downplay his experience because there is no degree to be earned in the field of cults. Well maybe after this group is brought down and more people speak out maybe some university may choose to make this a field of study. I will be the first in line to give my first hand account of my experience to anyone willing to listen.
I think Mr Hassan has excellent credentials to speak about cults. Who better to speak about cults than someone who experienced it himself. WMSCOG tried to downplay his experience because there is no degree to be earned in the field of cults. Well maybe after this group is brought down and more people speak out maybe some university may choose to make this a field of study. I will be the first in line to give my first hand account of my experience to anyone willing to listen.
emil wrote:
Questioninginla wrote:
All that being said, the underlying assumption is that Hassan knows the discipline; Dr. Mann is critical of the way in which Hassan markets himself and presents himself to the public. Alas there are plenty of examples for fresh parents & loved ones paying fees to find in Hassan's books how he got them out! I do wonder if he realizes how much he comes across as The Mr. Cult Savior Guy when people are in such a leveraged position with their emotions.
So does the wmscog.
Regarding the last sentence, Hassan at least is accused of using the existing emotions as leverage. With the WMSCOG, they create the emotion first by ruthlessly attacking the subject's beliefs from their earlier church with a whole load of falsehoods.
fair enough, emil.
For the record, there are at least a half-dozen other people that I know of with sufficient enough experience and knowledge as Hassan.
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