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“From this same Catholic Church you have accepted your Sunday, and that Sunday, as the Lord’s day, she has handed down as a tradition; and the entire Protestant world has accepted it as tradition, for you have not an iota of Scripture to establish it. Therefore that which you have accepted as your rule of faith, inadequate as it of course is, as well as your Sunday, you have accepted on the authority of the Roman Catholic Church” (D.B. Ray;">The Papal Controversy, p. 179, 1892).
I agree FTOS. When the law 'don't use your phone while driving' was added to the traffic laws we didn't need everything else to be repeated to know we still can't run red lights. Think about back when that law wasn't in place. People already knew we weren't supposed to run red lights..
ps. I am still reading every verse with the word bread in it and gathering Scriptures that suggest there was no Feast or Sabbath being kept when the people broke bread.
fromtheotherside wrote:
What if Jesus wanted us to know and obey Christ's laws, and what if Sabbath was one of them? What if not keeping sabbath lead to not being saved?
You can think well there is nothing in the bible that makes us 100% believe that. Right? But there is nothing in the bible that 100% leads you not to believe it also.
Let's think about this. Let's first think about sunday. If this is God's NEW day of worship then that means it is NEW to all people. Everyone only new Saturday because of the Jews.
Then if this is a NEW commandment or law then shouldn't it be expressed as Moses did in the old testament. Or as God did, he always gave and declared any new laws. But Sunday was never given.
But let's think about saturday. This day was already in effect it was already declared it was already known. People argue God never told us to keep it in the new testament. But why would he have to when people are already keeping it. It is already known. And he gave laws concerning it. He said " is it not lawful to heal people on the sabbath" and then he healed the sick and the blind. So he is giving us new rules to follow on the sabbath.
"What if"s do not a bible make.
Tell me where keeping the Sabbath is commanded in the NT.
Read Col chapter 2:16-19 :16 Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17 These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ. 18 Do not let anyone who delights in false humility and the worship of angels disqualify you. Such a person also goes into great detail about what they have seen; they are puffed up with idle notions by their unspiritual mind. 19 They have lost connection with the head, from whom the whole body, supported and held together by its ligaments and sinews, grows as God causes it to grow.
Read Gal 5:13-26 with special emphasis on the list of sins in 19-21. The whole NT names sins but never says anything about failure to keep the sabbath being a sin.
We might claim that everyone knew it was a sin then. But many non-Jews were joining the church. Yet no instructions were given to them to keep the sabbath. Why is that? Most of the original commandments were moral commandments. The sabbath was a cermonial one.
Can you say that a day is not suitable to worship God? Every day is suitable for worship. This is the day that the Lord has made.
fromtheotherside wrote:
What if Jesus wanted us to know and obey Christ's laws, and what if Sabbath was one of them? What if not keeping sabbath lead to not being saved?
I have a project for you. It won't take long if you use biblegateway.com. Look up "Christ law" and see what the Bible describes as the law of Christ. I'll make it easy for you. You can go straight to the search here: http://www.biblegateway.com/keyword/?search=christ+law&searchtype=all&version1=31&language1=en&spanbegin=1&spanend=73&resultspp=100&displayas=long&sort=bookorder
What do you gather about the the law of Christ from looking at those verses? I'll tell you what I see, but first I'd like to hear what you see.
You can think well there is nothing in the bible that makes us 100% believe that. Right? But there is nothing in the bible that 100% leads you not to believe it also.
Let's think about this. Let's first think about sunday. If this is God's NEW day of worship then that means it is NEW to all people. Everyone only new Saturday because of the Jews.
Then if this is a NEW commandment or law then shouldn't it be expressed as Moses did in the old testament. Or as God did, he always gave and declared any new laws. But Sunday was never given.
You have a point, but only if the new covenant is based on keeping a set of laws. However, the new covenant is based on grace, not law.
But let's think about saturday. This day was already in effect it was already declared it was already known. People argue God never told us to keep it in the new testament. But why would he have to when people are already keeping it. It is already known. And he gave laws concerning it. He said " is it not lawful to heal people on the sabbath" and then he healed the sick and the blind. So he is giving us new rules to follow on the sabbath.
If this were true, then God would not have needed to repeat the laws about do not murder, do not lie, do not commit adultery, worship God only, no idolatry, etc. But those (and more) are all repeated in the New Testament.
I find it odd if keeping Sabbath was such a key to salvation, that there would be no direct command of it in the New Testament. Jesus and the disciples had many opportunities to admonish people to keep the Sabbath, but they didn't say it.
Instead, we see Romans 14, Galatians 4:9-11, and Colossians 2:16-17, where we are told not to judge each other on such things.
I am probably going to regret posting this…..
I was discussing religious beliefs and practices with a friend of mine the other day. In our discussion the debate between Saturday and Sunday worship services was brought. I brought up the WMSCOG's position that those who worship God on Sundays are actually unintentionally worshipping the Sun god and not the true God. My friend then said that it could be argued that those worshipping on Saturdays are unintentionally worshipping the Roman god Saturn for which the day is named for. It made me chuckle. We then discussed calling the 7th day Sabbath and etc. etc. etc…
Rahab wrote:
I am probably going to regret posting this…..
I was discussing religious beliefs and practices with a friend of mine the other day. In our discussion the debate between Saturday and Sunday worship services was brought. I brought up the WMSCOG's position that those who worship God on Sundays are actually unintentionally worshipping the Sun god and not the true God. My friend then said that it could be argued that those worshipping on Saturdays are unintentionally worshipping the Roman god Saturn for which the day is named for. It made me chuckle. We then discussed calling the 7th day Sabbath and etc. etc. etc…
It's funny you mention it because I've thought the same thing!
I've thought that if Constantine had made that law and wanted to protect Saturday worship for the Sabbath, would he have worded it as "the venerable day of Saturn"? And then all the Sabbatarians would be accused of unknowingly worshipping Saturn.
fromtheotherside wrote:
The only verse that even has any significance to Christ's law is <strong style="font-family: Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 16px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">1 Corinthians 9:21
To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God’s law but am under Christ’s law), so as to win those not having the law.
<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">In the verses you gave in biblegateway, the new testament is that their is the law (OT) Christ Law(NT) and Faith which together with works leads to salvation. Now what is Christs law? why don't you look at these verses and try to find out I will tell you what I think later.</font>
http://www.biblegateway.com/keyword/?search=law&version1=NIV&searchtype=all&bookset=2
I thought a lot more were significant but if you were looking for specifically what is the law of Christ,
Galatians 6:2, "Carry each other’s burdens, and in this way you will fulfill the law of Christ."
Nothing else is so clear a description of "Christ's law."
fromtheotherside wrote:
We are saved by grace not by the law that means OT law not Christ law. which we must keep.
If you used "mated verses" like the wmscog does, then you must see that the "Law of Christ" is to "carry each other's burdens."
fromtheotherside wrote:
He repeated it because it wasn't changed slightly. In the ot it says do not commit adultry, but in the NT Jesus ADDS to it or CLARIFIES IT and says even if you think of and lust for a women it is adultry. Insince the OT has the law do not commit adultry, he does not repeat that, but adds to or clarifies something in it. he is not repeating "do not commit adultry" same with all the other points you mentioned. so that is why he does not have to repeat sabbath but only clarify or change if nessacary "is it lawful to heal on the sabbath" But sunday is different there is no word or even a drop of sunday in teh bible
Ok, then, how did God add to or clarify the commands against lying, idolatry, worshiping other Gods, coveting, and stealing in the New Testament?
fromtheotherside wrote:
That one Ill let you do your home work on that, I gave you the adultry free but I will let you find the rest out.
Honestly, I'd like you to tell me, because I don't see a change in those.
fromtheotherside wrote:
The only verse that even has any significance to Christ's law is 1 Corinthians 9:21
To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God’s law but am under Christ’s law), so as to win those not having the law.
Two questions:
1. Why did you cherry pick and decide that this was the only verse of significance?
2. What is your understanding of the meaning of the verse you have picked?
fromtheotherside wrote:
In the verses you gave in biblegateway, the new testament is that their is the law (OT) Christ Law(NT) and Faith which together with works leads to salvation. Now what is Christs law? why don't you look at these verses and try to find out I will tell you what I think later.
http://www.biblegateway.com/keyword/?search=law&version1=NIV&searchtype=all&bookset=2
Genny gave you a search for "Christ+law". You are giving back one with just "law". I thought a search for Christ+law would give better results than a search for law alone if you wanted to find out Christ's law. Not sure what is the point you are trying to make.
Going online and searching something will bring up what the programmer has programmed to show up. It's one thing to search for a word or phrase like 'Christ's law' which I haven't seen in the bible. But it's another thing to search for Christ's law if that makes any sense.
It's like searching for the words 'good food' and searching for good food. The latter is a matter of the opinion of the programmer.
FTOS has a problem with Genny's search for Christ's Law. Would be nice if FTOS can list out scriptures that tell us all the laws that Christ (Jesus) gave. My friend in the wmscog also keeps on about following Jesus' commands but does not give an answer when she asked to list the commands.
I have provided the scripture Col 2:16-19 which tells us what the bible says about insisting on judging people on the basis of keeping feasts and sabbath. I am waiting for FTOS' reply.
I created a post for this but so far I have only seen an ex-member trying to answer this question.
Genny, I think you should try and summarize the points in this thread which you made for which we are still waiting for FTOS' answer. With so many other posts, perhaps he has lost connection with the main points. I too am waiting for FTOS' reply on the following points in this thread.
1. What is his list of Christ's laws and the bible verses to make the claim?
2. What is his interpretation of Col 2:16?
3. What is his interpretation of 1 Cor 9:21 which he cherry picked from the search?
fromtheotherside wrote:
So whenever The apostle speak or even jesus speaks of "the law" it's refering to the OT law not Christ's law.
Is this an admission that we are not bound by OT law?
wmscog doesn’t teach we’re under ot law anyway.
So far as codifying the law Jews haven’t been able with the ot law and its much more spelled out I don’t think anyone is arrogant enough to believe complete understanding of God’s will short of the obvious two
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