[fromtheotherside]

“From this same Catholic Church you have accepted your Sunday, and that Sunday, as the Lord’s day, she has handed down as a tradition; and the entire Protestant world has accepted it as tradition, for you have not an iota of Scripture to establish it. Therefore that which you have accepted as your rule of faith, in­adequate as it of course is, as well as your Sunday, you have accepted on the authority of the Roman Catholic Church” (D.B. Ray;">The Papal Controversy, p. 179, 1892).

[emil]

[emil]

Simon wrote:

wmscog doesn't teach we're under ot law anyway.

So far as codifying the law Jews haven't been able with the ot law and its much more spelled out I don't think anyone is arrogant enough to believe complete understanding of God's will short of the obvious two

The 10 commandments are from the OT. Sabbath is one of them. It is the only one of the 10 that has not explicitly been confirmed in the NT. If it is accepted that we're not under the OT law, the Sabbath commandment goes out the window don't you think?

[Simon]

emil wrote:

Simon wrote:

wmscog doesn't teach we're under ot law anyway.

So far as codifying the law Jews haven't been able with the ot law and its much more spelled out I don't think anyone is arrogant enough to believe complete understanding of God's will short of the obvious two

The 10 commandments are from the OT. Sabbath is one of them. It is the only one of the 10 that has not explicitly been confirmed in the NT. If it is accepted that we're not under the OT law, the Sabbath commandment goes out the window don't you think?

 

emil wrote:

Simon wrote:

wmscog doesn't teach we're under ot law anyway.

So far as codifying the law Jews haven't been able with the ot law and its much more spelled out I don't think anyone is arrogant enough to believe complete understanding of God's will short of the obvious two

The 10 commandments are from the OT. Sabbath is one of them. It is the only one of the 10 that has not explicitly been confirmed in the NT. If it is accepted that we're not under the OT law, the Sabbath commandment goes out the window don't you think?

It is confirmed in the NT and the OT is prophesies cannot be ignored either it says the one who removed the set times is the evil one and so Jesus cannot be the one who removes them

[emil]

Simon wrote:

 

It is confirmed in the NT and the OT is prophesies cannot be ignored either it says the one who removed the set times is the evil one and so Jesus cannot be the one who removes them

You'll have to give me quotes to show me where this particular commandment is confirmed explicitly. I can show you where the others are confirmed.

You also quote where it says the one who removed the set times is the evil one and I'll respond to that one too. I can also show you who the bible describes as the antichrist and then we can see who that description fits.

[Simon]

I've posted several times where he confirms it in Matthew 24 and  Paul in Hebrews 4

and that it was the evil one in Daniel 7

 

we also have gentiles keeping Sabbath in Acts 13  

[Love'n Honey]

Acts 20:7 they broke bread on the 1st day. This is the Sabbath. Mt 14:19 Jesus broke bread. Which day? Idk but it's the Sabbath. Acts 2:42 Bread was broken on the Day of Pentecost which is poorly named. It was obviously the Sabbath. The "PO" was on a Thursday when Jesus broke bread. That's the Sabbath. (sarcasm) And there are many verses where people broke bread and it was a feast day or the word "Sabbath" appeared making it definitely the Sabbath. I know I'm super late but! the point I'm making is from the verses of the Bible, one cannot say that because bread was broken on a particular day, it was the Sabbath. We can see that bread was broken on feast days as well. Acts 20 could have been referring to a feast day other than the Sabbath. But the only way we know what day it was is if it said it or if we look at the context clues such as "The day after the Sabbath". Act 20 did not say "Sabbath", the "Lord's Day" or any other descriptive word that people use to describe the Sabbath. It only said the 1st day. I broke bread today. It was corn bread with lots of butter and it was delicious. Today is the Sabbath. =)

[fromtheotherside]

emil wrote:

fromtheotherside wrote:

The only verse that even has any significance to Christ's law is 1 Corinthians 9:21

 

 

To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God’s law but am under Christ’s law), so as to win those not having the law.

 

Two questions: 

1. Why did you cherry pick and decide that this was the only verse of significance?

2. What is your understanding of the meaning of the verse you have picked?

 

 

fromtheotherside wrote:

 

In the verses you gave in biblegateway, the new testament is that their is the law (OT) Christ Law(NT)  and Faith which together with works leads to salvation.  Now what is Christs law? why don't you look at these verses and try to find out I will tell you what I think later.

 

http://www.biblegateway.com/keyword/?search=law&version1=NIV&searchtype=all&bookset=2

Genny gave you a search for "Christ+law". You are giving back one with just "law". I thought a search for Christ+law would give better results than a search for law alone if you wanted to find out Christ's law. Not sure what is the point you are trying to make.

I "cherry picked it" because it distinguishs the fact that whatever Christ setup is his law, not OT, also it shows that there is "Laws" that we must follow, also in the NT, the apostles refer to the OT laws as just "the Law" or "the letter" .

[fromtheotherside]

emil wrote:

FTOS has a problem with Genny's search for Christ's Law. Would be nice if FTOS can list out scriptures that tell us all the laws that Christ (Jesus) gave. My friend in the wmscog also keeps on about following Jesus' commands but does not give an answer when she asked to list the commands.

I have provided the scripture Col 2:16-19 which tells us what the bible says about insisting on judging people on the basis of keeping feasts and sabbath. I am waiting for FTOS' reply.

Why did you :"cherry pick" this verse emil?    Actualy if you think about this verse it does not protect or defend the keeping of Sunday!  Sabbath is Saturday.  It actually proves that gentiles kept Sabbath not sunday.  Also this was directed more at gentiles who incorperated pagan worship into their service and also worshiping spirits, so they JUDGED the gentiles who were trying to keep the sabbath and "new moon festivals"  This wasn't directed to converted "jews".  

[fromtheotherside]

Simon wrote:

emil wrote:

Simon wrote:

wmscog doesn't teach we're under ot law anyway.

So far as codifying the law Jews haven't been able with the ot law and its much more spelled out I don't think anyone is arrogant enough to believe complete understanding of God's will short of the obvious two

The 10 commandments are from the OT. Sabbath is one of them. It is the only one of the 10 that has not explicitly been confirmed in the NT. If it is accepted that we're not under the OT law, the Sabbath commandment goes out the window don't you think?

 

emil wrote:

Simon wrote:

wmscog doesn't teach we're under ot law anyway.

So far as codifying the law Jews haven't been able with the ot law and its much more spelled out I don't think anyone is arrogant enough to believe complete understanding of God's will short of the obvious two

The 10 commandments are from the OT. Sabbath is one of them. It is the only one of the 10 that has not explicitly been confirmed in the NT. If it is accepted that we're not under the OT law, the Sabbath commandment goes out the window don't you think?

It is confirmed in the NT and the OT is prophesies cannot be ignored either it says the one who removed the set times is the evil one and so Jesus cannot be the one who removes them

OT laws are what Moses established on MT sanai. The laws of Christ is what he established.  Christ said do "the laws say to not commit Adultry, But i tell you this anyone who even lusts for another women has already commited adultry in his heart."  Do not commit adultry is OT law but Christ took that and made it HIS law so it is Christ's law now.  Same with the Ten commandants (which do not commit adultry is under) and the Feast.  Do not commit adultry do not steal do not lie do not murder.  Sot he ten commandents are now part of Christ's law.

Christ also establishes this fact by saying two commandments, one Love God with all your heart and with all your strength and mind, Second is love your neighbor, he saied that this fulfills all the laws.  If you look at the ten commandments it is brokenin to two groups one is for the worship of God and the second is moral laws in relation to the people around you. Then how does LOVE GOD fit with the ten commandments.  First is how do you love god? Christ said many times if you love me then follow my fathers will and follow my commands and follow my father's commands, he said this explicitly.  Loving God is to obey.  and the commands of God are the ten commandments, which in the first part is for worshiping God, do not worship other Gods, idolatry, sabbath.  To keep those is to love god.  Also the feasts.  Their are specific examples of LOVE GOD with all your strength and mind and heart.  One is king Hezekiah. GOd said that king hezekiah was someone who loved him with all his mind strenght and heart(try to find another person god says this too, strangly it is only said to King Hezekiah after he kept the passover which was not kept by the jew for decades)! but only after he did something, which was to keep the Passover.  

Second of Christs command is love your neighbor.  the second part of the 10 commandments fulfills that. do not murder don't steal, adultry .. and so on.  that is love for you neighbor, also he takes it further by giving examples of the good samaritan.   

The OT laws were taken by Christ and fulfilled, They are Christs laws. 

[Simon]

Josiah is the one who turned to the Lord with all his heart and soul with Passover actually

[Love'n Honey]

And that's how we can love God with all our heart and soul.. by keeping PO.

[emil]

fromtheotherside wrote:

emil wrote:

fromtheotherside wrote:

The only verse that even has any significance to Christ's law is 1 Corinthians 9:21

 

To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God’s law but am under Christ’s law), so as to win those not having the law.

 

Two questions: 

1. Why did you cherry pick and decide that this was the only verse of significance?

2. What is your understanding of the meaning of the verse you have picked?

I "cherry picked it" because it distinguishs the fact that whatever Christ setup is his law, not OT, also it shows that there is "Laws" that we must follow, also in the NT, the apostles refer to the OT laws as just "the Law" or "the letter" .

But the search that Genny gave you was for Christ's laws. Is it your contention that this is the only verse that specifies Christ's laws? If not, can you come up with a list of verses and the the laws they lay down?

I have asked this before. I don't know why no wmscog member I have spoken to is willing to list this down.

[fromtheotherside]

fromtheotherside wrote:

Simon wrote:

emil wrote:

Simon wrote:

wmscog doesn't teach we're under ot law anyway.

So far as codifying the law Jews haven't been able with the ot law and its much more spelled out I don't think anyone is arrogant enough to believe complete understanding of God's will short of the obvious two

The 10 commandments are from the OT. Sabbath is one of them. It is the only one of the 10 that has not explicitly been confirmed in the NT. If it is accepted that we're not under the OT law, the Sabbath commandment goes out the window don't you think?

 

emil wrote:

Simon wrote:

wmscog doesn't teach we're under ot law anyway.

So far as codifying the law Jews haven't been able with the ot law and its much more spelled out I don't think anyone is arrogant enough to believe complete understanding of God's will short of the obvious two

The 10 commandments are from the OT. Sabbath is one of them. It is the only one of the 10 that has not explicitly been confirmed in the NT. If it is accepted that we're not under the OT law, the Sabbath commandment goes out the window don't you think?

It is confirmed in the NT and the OT is prophesies cannot be ignored either it says the one who removed the set times is the evil one and so Jesus cannot be the one who removes them

OT laws are what Moses established on MT sanai. The laws of Christ is what he established.  Christ said do "the laws say to not commit Adultry, But i tell you this anyone who even lusts for another women has already commited adultry in his heart."  Do not commit adultry is OT law but Christ took that and made it HIS law so it is Christ's law now.  Same with the Ten commandants (which do not commit adultry is under) and the Feast.  Do not commit adultry do not steal do not lie do not murder.  Sot he ten commandents are now part of Christ's law.

Christ also establishes this fact by saying two commandments, one Love God with all your heart and with all your strength and mind, Second is love your neighbor, he saied that this fulfills all the laws.  If you look at the ten commandments it is brokenin to two groups one is for the worship of God and the second is moral laws in relation to the people around you. Then how does LOVE GOD fit with the ten commandments.  First is how do you love god? Christ said many times if you love me then follow my fathers will and follow my commands and follow my father's commands, he said this explicitly.  Loving God is to obey.  and the commands of God are the ten commandments, which in the first part is for worshiping God, do not worship other Gods, idolatry, sabbath.  To keep those is to love god.  Also the feasts.  Their are specific examples of LOVE GOD with all your strength and mind and heart.  One is king Hezekiah. GOd said that king hezekiah was someone who loved him with all his mind strenght and heart(try to find another person god says this too, strangly it is only said to King Hezekiah after he kept the passover which was not kept by the jew for decades)! but only after he did something, which was to keep the Passover.  

Second of Christs command is love your neighbor.  the second part of the 10 commandments fulfills that. do not murder don't steal, adultry .. and so on.  that is love for you neighbor, also he takes it further by giving examples of the good samaritan.   

The OT laws were taken by Christ and fulfilled, They are Christs laws. 

This summerizes it and gives you a clear answer to your question Emil, it's not in a list format but it explains well.

[emil]

fromtheotherside wrote:

 

Why did you :"cherry pick" this verse emil?    Actualy if you think about this verse it does not protect or defend the keeping of Sunday!  Sabbath is Saturday.  It actually proves that gentiles kept Sabbath not sunday.  Also this was directed more at gentiles who incorperated pagan worship into their service and also worshiping spirits, so they JUDGED the gentiles who were trying to keep the sabbath and "new moon festivals"  This wasn't directed to converted "jews".  

I think you ought to carefully read a post before trying to dispute it. I did not say that the verse supports Sunday Sabbath. 

I agree that these words addressed the gentiles and not the Jews. It does not prove that the gentiles kept Sabbath enmasse. It proves that some gentiles thought they were to keep the festivals and Sabbath because were being judged by sabbatarians very much like you are doing here. You judge Christians and condemn them as sinners because they will not observe "your law."

But Paul tells those christians that the ones who judge them on that basis are "puffed up with idle notions by their unspiritual mind." Sorry not my words but Paul's. Please be honest with yourself and read that verse again. Tell me if Paul is supporting the keeping of the sabbath or rejecting it for those gentiles.

[fromtheotherside]

emil wrote:

fromtheotherside wrote:

 

Why did you :"cherry pick" this verse emil?    Actualy if you think about this verse it does not protect or defend the keeping of Sunday!  Sabbath is Saturday.  It actually proves that gentiles kept Sabbath not sunday.  Also this was directed more at gentiles who incorperated pagan worship into their service and also worshiping spirits, so they JUDGED the gentiles who were trying to keep the sabbath and "new moon festivals"  This wasn't directed to converted "jews".  

I think you ought to carefully read a post before trying to dispute it. I did not say that the verse supports Sunday Sabbath. 

I agree that these words addressed the gentiles and not the Jews. It does not prove that the gentiles kept Sabbath enmasse. It proves that some gentiles thought they were to keep the festivals and Sabbath because were being judged by sabbatarians very much like you are doing here. You judge Christians and condemn them as sinners because they will not observe "your law."

But Paul tells those christians that the ones who judge them on that basis are "puffed up with idle notions by their unspiritual mind." Sorry not my words but Paul's. Please be honest with yourself and read that verse again. Tell me if Paul is supporting the keeping of the sabbath or rejecting it for those gentiles.

Col 2:8 See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the elemental spiritual forces of this world rather than on Christ.

Human tradition and elemental spiritual forces, he is talking about the rituals associated with the people in that region who do not believe in God meaning not sabbatarians(sabbatarians believe in god) .  

and so it starts off in Verse 16 "THEREFORE, do not let ….."

Verse 18 is says Do not let anyone who delights in false humility and the worship of angels disqualify you. Such a person also goes into great detail about what they have seen; they are puffed up with idle notions by their unspiritual mind. (please state the whole verse next time) 

those who worship angels, meaning NONBELIEVING GENTILES who do not worship GOD, that doesn't not imply sabbatarians who worship GOD or the Jews. 

Verse 20 Since you died with Christ to the elemental spiritual forces of this world, why, as though you still belonged to the world, do you submit to its rules:

Why submit to EARTHLY RULES, that means Gentile worship, paganry, PAGANS don't keep sabbath. 

You cherry picked the wrong verse.   And thanks to God it was not your words but Paul's or it might have backed up your claims.  NONBELIEVING GENTILES were judging them for keeping sabbath, and not doing pagan worship like SUNDAY

[emil]

Simon wrote:

I've posted several times where he confirms it in Matthew 24 and  Paul in Hebrews 4

and that it was the evil one in Daniel 7

 

we also have gentiles keeping Sabbath in Acts 13  

Mt 24:20 – "Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath." This is hardly a confirmation that one should keep the Sabbath. It is a statement on what will happen if the events happen on such a day. This is because of how the people of that time lived and kept the sabbath. Jesus himself disputed those notions of keeping the sabbath a number of times. So Jesus is not actually commanding us to do likewise but relating the consequences if the events coincide with the sabbath, the way people were keeping it then.

Heb 4:8 – "For if Joshua had given them rest, God would not have spoken later about another day." Obviously it is another day. Let me be clear. I am not saying this means Sunday either.

Acts 13 – Paul, et al. went to the synagogue on the sabbath to preach because of the opportunity it provided them to address in one place both Jews and the gentiles who believed in Yahweh (verse 43). This does not in anyway confirm that the apostles chose this day of the week exclusively for worship.

[emil]

Simon wrote:

I've posted several times where he confirms it in Matthew 24 and  Paul in Hebrews 4

and that it was the evil one in Daniel 7

 

we also have gentiles keeping Sabbath in Acts 13  

Mt 24:20 – "Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath." This is hardly a confirmation that one should keep the Sabbath. It is a statement on what will happen if the events happen on such a day. This is because of how the people of that time lived and kept the sabbath. Jesus himself disputed those notions of keeping the sabbath a number of times. So Jesus is not actually commanding us to do likewise but relating the consequences if the events coincide with the sabbath, the way people were keeping it then.

Heb 4:8 – "For if Joshua had given them rest, God would not have spoken later about another day." Obviously it is another day. Let me be clear. I am not saying this means Sunday either.

Acts 13 – Paul, et al. went to the synagogue on the sabbath to preach because of the opportunity it provided them to address in one place both Jews and the gentiles who believed in Yahweh (verse 43). This does not in anyway confirm that the apostles chose this day of the week exclusively for worship.

[fromtheotherside]

emil wrote:

Simon wrote:

I've posted several times where he confirms it in Matthew 24 and  Paul in Hebrews 4

and that it was the evil one in Daniel 7

 

we also have gentiles keeping Sabbath in Acts 13  

Mt 24:20 – "Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath." This is hardly a confirmation that one should keep the Sabbath. It is a statement on what will happen if the events happen on such a day. This is because of how the people of that time lived and kept the sabbath. Jesus himself disputed those notions of keeping the sabbath a number of times. So Jesus is not actually commanding us to do likewise but relating the consequences if the events coincide with the sabbath, the way people were keeping it then.

Heb 4:8 – "For if Joshua had given them rest, God would not have spoken later about another day." Obviously it is another day. Let me be clear. I am not saying this means Sunday either.

Acts 13 – Paul, et al. went to the synagogue on the sabbath to preach because of the opportunity it provided them to address in one place both Jews and the gentiles who believed in Yahweh (verse 43). This does not in anyway confirm that the apostles chose this day of the week exclusively for worship.

Emil, People of that time were controlled by gentiles, there was not even a Jewish nation then, everything was controlled by the Romans, and the Romans or anyother controlling nation wouldn't care even a bit if a jew did not keep sabbath or worship god or FLEE ON A SABBATH.  So obviously Jesus is not stating this for such a reason. It is because the appostle or who ever hears that message will have a problem personally not because of outside elements like other people but because of a personal commitment to keeping the feast of God.

[fromtheotherside]

emil wrote:

Simon wrote:

I've posted several times where he confirms it in Matthew 24 and  Paul in Hebrews 4

and that it was the evil one in Daniel 7

 

we also have gentiles keeping Sabbath in Acts 13  

Mt 24:20 – "Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath." This is hardly a confirmation that one should keep the Sabbath. It is a statement on what will happen if the events happen on such a day. This is because of how the people of that time lived and kept the sabbath. Jesus himself disputed those notions of keeping the sabbath a number of times. So Jesus is not actually commanding us to do likewise but relating the consequences if the events coincide with the sabbath, the way people were keeping it then.

Heb 4:8 – "For if Joshua had given them rest, God would not have spoken later about another day." Obviously it is another day. Let me be clear. I am not saying this means Sunday either.

Acts 13 – Paul, et al. went to the synagogue on the sabbath to preach because of the opportunity it provided them to address in one place both Jews and the gentiles who believed in Yahweh (verse 43). This does not in anyway confirm that the apostles chose this day of the week exclusively for worship.

Emil, People of that time were controlled by gentiles, there was not even a Jewish nation then, everything was controlled by the Romans, and the Romans or anyother controlling nation wouldn't care even a bit if a jew did not keep sabbath or worship god or FLEE ON A SABBATH.  So obviously Jesus is not stating this for such a reason. It is because the appostle or who ever hears that message will have a problem personally not because of outside elements like other people but because of a personal commitment to keeping the feast of God.

[emil]

fromtheotherside wrote:

 

Col 2:8 See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the elemental spiritual forces of this world rather than on Christ.

Human tradition and elemental spiritual forces, he is talking about the rituals associated with the people in that region who do not believe in God meaning not sabbatarians(sabbatarians believe in god) .  

and so it starts off in Verse 16 "THEREFORE, do not let ….."

Verse 18 is says Do not let anyone who delights in false humility and the worship of angels disqualify you. Such a person also goes into great detail about what they have seen; they are puffed up with idle notions by their unspiritual mind. (please state the whole verse next time) 

those who worship angels, meaning NONBELIEVING GENTILES who do not worship GOD, that doesn't not imply sabbatarians who worship GOD or the Jews. 

Verse 20 Since you died with Christ to the elemental spiritual forces of this world, why, as though you still belonged to the world, do you submit to its rules:

Why submit to EARTHLY RULES, that means Gentile worship, paganry, PAGANS don't keep sabbath. 

You cherry picked the wrong verse.   And thanks to God it was not your words but Paul's or it might have backed up your claims.  NONBELIEVING GENTILES were judging them for keeping sabbath, and not doing pagan worship like SUNDAY

All those points are subject to interpretation and can fit into whatever you believe. "Worship of angels" could very well apply to the wmscog who believe we humans were all angels and worship two of them. Human traditions can equally well apply to the Jews who Jesus pointed out were depending on human tradition. You have started quoting verse 16 but stopped short because it is the one verse that is very explicit about not allowing ourselves to be judged on the basis of sabbath keeping.

[emil]

fromtheotherside wrote:

 

Emil, People of that time were controlled by gentiles, there was not even a Jewish nation then, everything was controlled by the Romans, and the Romans or anyother controlling nation wouldn't care even a bit if a jew did not keep sabbath or worship god or FLEE ON A SABBATH.  So obviously Jesus is not stating this for such a reason. It is because the appostle or who ever hears that message will have a problem personally not because of outside elements like other people but because of a personal commitment to keeping the feast of God.

Sorry I may be dumb. Your logic eludes me.