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“From this same Catholic Church you have accepted your Sunday, and that Sunday, as the Lord’s day, she has handed down as a tradition; and the entire Protestant world has accepted it as tradition, for you have not an iota of Scripture to establish it. Therefore that which you have accepted as your rule of faith, inadequate as it of course is, as well as your Sunday, you have accepted on the authority of the Roman Catholic Church” (D.B. Ray;">The Papal Controversy, p. 179, 1892).
fromtheotherside wrote:
fromtheotherside wrote:
OT laws are what Moses established on MT sanai. The laws of Christ is what he established. Christ said do "the laws say to not commit Adultry, But i tell you this anyone who even lusts for another women has already commited adultry in his heart." Do not commit adultry is OT law but Christ took that and made it HIS law so it is Christ's law now. Same with the Ten commandants (which do not commit adultry is under) and the Feast. Do not commit adultry do not steal do not lie do not murder. Sot he ten commandents are now part of Christ's law.
Christ also establishes this fact by saying two commandments, one Love God with all your heart and with all your strength and mind, Second is love your neighbor, he saied that this fulfills all the laws. If you look at the ten commandments it is brokenin to two groups one is for the worship of God and the second is moral laws in relation to the people around you. Then how does LOVE GOD fit with the ten commandments. First is how do you love god? Christ said many times if you love me then follow my fathers will and follow my commands and follow my father's commands, he said this explicitly. Loving God is to obey. and the commands of God are the ten commandments, which in the first part is for worshiping God, do not worship other Gods, idolatry, sabbath. To keep those is to love god. Also the feasts. Their are specific examples of LOVE GOD with all your strength and mind and heart. One is king Hezekiah. GOd said that king hezekiah was someone who loved him with all his mind strenght and heart(try to find another person god says this too, strangly it is only said to King Hezekiah after he kept the passover which was not kept by the jew for decades)! but only after he did something, which was to keep the Passover.
Second of Christs command is love your neighbor. the second part of the 10 commandments fulfills that. do not murder don't steal, adultry .. and so on. that is love for you neighbor, also he takes it further by giving examples of the good samaritan.
The OT laws were taken by Christ and fulfilled, They are Christs laws.
This summerizes it and gives you a clear answer to your question Emil, it's not in a list format but it explains well.
Sorry that is not explicit. It is by inference you have come to that conclusion. You own post gives examples of explicit. Jesus speaks against adultery. That is explicit. In the same way Jesus also spoke about murder, expanding the scope of the commandment. He spoke about Honouring your (earthly) father and mother. 9 of the 10 commandments are moral and every one of them is explicitly brought up in the NT. The sabbath commmandment is the only ceremonial one and that has never been explicitly commanded in the NT.
FTOS – You are conveniently twisting my point, which is that 9 of the 10 commandments have been explicitly confirmed in the NT. Only the sabbath one hasn't. So how can that prove your point that it includes the sabbath? If Paul thought he needed to tell them to keep the sabbath and that is what he meant in this sentence, why is it that the church of the apostles never made that clear in Acts 15?
And regarding your argument that Jesus never explicitly forbade the sabbath either, it seems that you now accept that he never confirmed it while at the same time confirming all the other 9. Tells you something doesn't it?
Col 2:16 – if you say that it means they must keep it, then looking at the sentence, you will have to say they must keep new moon celebrations too. Is that what you mean? You can believe what you want to by twisting the interpretation. If you claim that Paul is telling the Colossians to keep the sabbath no matter what, I wonder who you think Paul is talking about in Gal 1:6-7. Who is perverting the gospel?
fromtheotherside wrote:
Also to love god with allyour heart mind and strength, Explicitly says to us as he did to Josiah and Hezekiah, but only because they kept the passover after it was forgotton for so long. That is EXPLICIT.
Loving God with all your heart mind and strength does not explicitly confirm sabbath keeping. It is only by your inference. Kindly try to understand the difference between inference and being explicit. Inference is subjective. One may infer something, another may not. It is a viewpoint.
I have given you examples of explicit. The sins of adultery and murder and dishonour to father and mother.
I don't see FTOS saying the Sabbath is how you love God with all your heart, mind, and strength. He said PO.
My question to him was about where it explicitly says about the Sabbath and he gave that as his answer. So I don't know how it fits as an answer to my question. Also I don't see FTOS or wmscog keeping the passover exactly like Josiah and Hezekiah did either.
Because the WMSCOG says they are to keep the NC PO just like they keep the NC Sabbath. But yea, his answer doesn't make sense to your question.
HEY! We don't need to tell people to calm down…
Sorry I'm a bit behind….
fromtheotherside, you said:
Their are specific examples of LOVE GOD with all your strength and mind and heart. One is king Hezekiah. GOd said that king hezekiah was someone who loved him with all his mind strenght and heart(try to find another person god says this too, strangly it is only said to King Hezekiah after he kept the passover which was not kept by the jew for decades)! but only after he did something, which was to keep the Passover.
I can't find this verse. Can you please give the reference?
And you said it again, later:
Also to love god with allyour heart mind and strength, Explicitly says to us as he did to Josiah and Hezekiah, but only because they kept the passover after it was forgotton for so long.
Only previously you had said that it was only said to Hezekiah, and now you say it was to both Josiah and Hezekiah. Please give verse references because I'm not finding it.
fromtheotherside wrote:
Yea forgot about josiah. sorry! here's the verses 2 kings 23:21-25 and it was King Josiah that god said it too my mistake.
Thanks.
Did keeping the Passover cause Josiah to love the Lord with all his heart?
Or did loving the Lord with all his heart cause Josiah to keep the Passover?
FTOS, I did look at your alternate interpretation of Col 2:16 with an open mind. I searched for bible commentaries to see what they said about your view. I went through the first page of search results and here's what I found.
http://www.biblegateway.com/resources/commentaries/IVP-NT/Col/Accusation-Without-Foundation
Accusation Without Foundation
The second section of Paul's theological polemic envisions a particular person who apparently is acting as a spiritual umpire, watching to see whether the community observes certain holy days and complies with certain dietary regulations and using these things to determine the quality of their devotion to God. In response, Paul issues here the first of two negative commands (imperative me): Do not let anyone judge you. The verb for judge (krino) is often used of God's final judgment, and it may be that the community's fitness for the new age (even the church's hope for participation in it) is determined in their minds by food and celebrations. The list of these celebrations, which includes a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day, is fairly typical (compare Hos 2:13; Ezek 45:17; Jubilees 1:14). Since the list encompasses annual festivals (such as Passover or Yom Kippur), monthly meetings (such as the New Moon celebration) and the weekly observance of sabbath, it is evident that Paul's opponents required a rather comprehensive obligation. Moreover, within Judaism most of these celebrations were intended to help the community look forward to Messiah's deliverance of Israel from its suffering and to its entrance into God's promised shalom. Thus, for the Christian to participate in these Jewish celebrations was tantamount to a denial of Jesus' messiahship. In addition, the dietary rules that accompanied the holy days had a social (as much as a religious) role: to publicize the community's distinctiveness as a separate people. To eat particular foods and not others symbolized their particularity within the world order. This function also detracted from Christianity's single social marker–its faith that Jesus is Lord Christ.
I should emphasize again that Paul's objection is not to religious celebration per se, and probably not even to a congregation's public expression of worship that borrows from the traditions of Judaism. Rather, Paul's primary concern here is any observance that does not concentrate the celebrants' attention upon Christ's importance for salvation. To observe a Jewish calendar of worship seems foolish to Paul when it does not celebrate Jesus as Lord Christ (compare Lohse 1971:115-16). He argues that it elevates an eschatological shadow (that is, Jewish worship's anticipation of God's salvation) over its reality (that is, the future blessings of God's salvation already experienced by those in Christ). Paul does not employ this shadow-reality dualism–a motif of Hellenistic Judaism–to deny the truth about God's promised salvation that is expressed by Judaism's worship on holy days or in eating patterns; rather, his purpose is to assert that the Messiah has already fulfilled the promise so that the reality is present, not future. Paul is not anti-Jewish; but he is opposed to those who appeal to Jewish practice to measure and even replace the core convictions of the Christian faith.
Paul is clearly writing about Jewish laws being forced upon christians.
http://www.easyenglish.info/bible-commentary/col-lbw.htm
Do not follow rules that people make
Verse 16 In the *Old Testament, God made laws about what things people might eat and drink. And he made laws about what they must not eat. God also told the *Jews to have special *holy days (Leviticus chapter 23). ‘Sabbath’ is the *Jewish day for rest. It is on the seventh day of the week (Genesis 2:2-3). The *Pharisees added hundreds of extra laws to God’s laws. The false teachers were like judges. They told the Christians to obey these laws too. They said that this would make them into better Christians. But Paul said that the false teachers were wrong. In Mark 7:19, Jesus said that the laws about food had ended. Christians may eat any foods. Paul wrote to the Galatians because they had started to obey the *Old Testament laws too.
Verse 17 In the past, the *Old Testament laws reminded the *Jews that God is *holy. The laws showed them how to live in the right way. But these laws did not give the *Jews the power to live a *holy life. However, every Christian in the world can live a *holy life. This is because of Christ. The laws were good. But Christ is superior to the laws. The laws only showed people how to live in God’s way. But Christ actually lived in God’s way. And Christ gives his power to everyone who trusts him. Christians do not need the laws; they only need Christ.
Verse 18 In Exodus 20, God gave the 10 main laws. We call them ‘the 10 commandments’. The first two laws say that people should not *worship anyone or anything except God. But some people in Colossae *worshipped *angels. They also said that they had special *spiritual experiences. They thought that they were better than other people were.
Verse 19 Paul referred to Christ as the head of the body in Colossians 1:18. The false teachers and other people said that Christians were not good enough. They ought to add extra things (verses 16-18) to be real Christians. But Paul said that the false teachers were not true Christians. A Christian has everything that he needs in Christ (verse 10). Christ gives true life to his church (the Christians). The false teachers separated themselves from Christ. Therefore, they could not be part of Christ’s body, which is the church.
Obviously this commentator also does not agree with your contention that Paul was writing about pagan customs. He was very much including Jewish regulations.
http://www.christnotes.org/commentary.php?com=mhc&b=51&c=2
Commentary on Colossians 2:8-17
There is a philosophy which rightly exercises our reasonable faculties; a study of the works of God, which leads us to the knowledge of God, and confirms our faith in him. But there is a philosophy which is vain and deceitful; and while it pleases men's fancies, hinders their faith: such are curious speculations about things above us, or no concern to us. Those who walk in the way of the world, are turned from following Christ. We have in Him the substance of all the shadows of the ceremonial law. All the defects of it are made up in the gospel of Christ, by his complete sacrifice for sin, and by the revelation of the will of God. To be complete, is to be furnished with all things necessary for salvation. By this one word "complete," is shown that we have in Christ whatever is required. "In him," not when we look to Christ, as though he were distant from us, but we are in him, when, by the power of the Spirit, we have faith wrought in our hearts by the Spirit, and we are united to our Head. The circumcision of the heart, the crucifixion of the flesh, the death and burial to sin and to the world, and the resurrection to newness of life, set forth in baptism, and by faith wrought in our hearts, prove that our sins are forgiven, and that we are fully delivered from the curse of the law. Through Christ, we, who were dead in sins, are quickened. Christ's death was the death of our sins; Christ's resurrection is the quickening of our souls. The law of ordinances, which was a yoke to the Jews, and a partition-wall to the Gentiles, the Lord Jesus took out of the way. When the substance was come, the shadows fled. Since every mortal man is, through the hand-writing of the law, guilty of death, how very dreadful is the condition of the ungodly and unholy, who trample under foot that blood of the Son of God, whereby alone this deadly hand-writing can be blotted out! Let not any be troubled about bigoted judgments which related to meats, or the Jewish solemnities. The setting apart a portion of our time for the worship and service of God, is a moral and unchangeable duty, but had no necessary dependence upon the seventh day of the week, the sabbath of the Jews. The first day of the week, or the Lord's day, is the time kept holy by Christians, in remembrance of Christ's resurrection. All the Jewish rites were shadows of gospel blessings.
One more commentator thinks the same.
So I guess your contention that Paul was writing about pagan customs and not Jewish law does not seem to have much support that I can see.
I wouldn’t use Wiki to prove. In School, everyone knows not to use wiki.
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