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“From this same Catholic Church you have accepted your Sunday, and that Sunday, as the Lord’s day, she has handed down as a tradition; and the entire Protestant world has accepted it as tradition, for you have not an iota of Scripture to establish it. Therefore that which you have accepted as your rule of faith, inadequate as it of course is, as well as your Sunday, you have accepted on the authority of the Roman Catholic Church” (D.B. Ray;">The Papal Controversy, p. 179, 1892).
Simon wrote:
The way others keep sabbath doesn't affect you
Could you please elaborate?
Yes. Honor thy father and mother, that it may go well with you. Very true. I also don’t believe that meant A and Z. Jesus never spoke about them in anyway.
If you keep sabbath I can still do whatever I want. Flee or work or anything
Sarah2013 wrote:
Yes. Honor thy father and mother, that it may go well with you. Very true. I also don't believe that meant A and Z. Jesus never spoke about them in anyway.
No that certainly did not mean A & Z. See what Jesus says in Mt 15:3-5.
3 He answered them, “And why do you break the commandment of God for the sake of your tradition? 4 For God said, ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and, ‘Whoever speaks evil of father or mother must surely die.’ 5 But you say that whoever tells father or mother, ‘Whatever support you might have had from me is given to God,’ then that person need not honor the father.
From the above, it is clear that Jesus applies the commandment to our earthly father and mother. The same thing is also described in Mk 7:10ff
Simon wrote:
If you keep sabbath I can still do whatever I want. Flee or work or anything
Exactly. If I keep the sabbath in the OT way, I must pray that the events don't happen on that day. On the other hand, the one who keeps it the NT way has no problem fleeing since it seems even more imperative to flee disaster than plucking grains and eating when hungry. So Jesus is calling for prayer for the people keeping it the OT way. But does he endorse keeping it that way?
Tell me this. You are feeling very hungry and are about to enter a building having a McDonalds restaurant to grab a burger. Just then there is an earthquake. Would you give priority to protecting yourself from the earthquake or would you still want to eat that burger first? Obviously, the Jesus who gives priority to the grain plucking and eating on the sabbath would give even higher priority to the fleeing from disaster. Makes sense now?
Yes, Emil. Out of curiosity I went and looked it up in “the message” version. Here is what it says:
Matthew 15:3-9
The Message (MSG)
3-9 But Jesus put it right back on them. “Why do you use your rules to play fast and loose with God’s commands? God clearly says, ‘Respect your father and mother,’ and, ‘Anyone denouncing father or mother should be killed.’ But you weasel around that by saying, ‘Whoever wants to, can say to father and mother, What I owed to you I’ve given to God.’ That can hardly be called respecting a parent. You cancel God’s command by your rules. Frauds! Isaiah’s prophecy of you hit the bull’s-eye:
These people make a big show of saying the right thing,
but their heart isn’t in it.
They act like they’re worshiping me,
but they don’t mean it.
They just use me as a cover
for teaching whatever suits their fancy.”
your response has nothing to do with what I said
Simon, so help me understand what you mean. Is it with reference to Mt 24:20 and my analysis?
Sarah2013, you are spot on. However our friends may object to using that translation because it paraphrases to a contemporary style of language.
jesus was speaking to nt keepers about the last days saying to pray not to ot keepers so sabbath must exist for us nt keepers on some way the ot being wholly irreverent
As for sarahs post I’d say the translation is awful yet still speaks to a legitimate issue
Ok. My main Bible is NASB. I simply posted the message version when I was looking it up in other versions. I think I said that.
Simon wrote:
jesus was speaking to nt keepers about the last days saying to pray not to ot keepers so sabbath must exist for us nt keepers on some way the ot being wholly irreverent
Ok now what you are saying is clear to me. And I suppose you mean irrelevant not irreverent.
Now lets look at the passage again. See what verses 16-18 say that we are to do when we see the signs of the events unfolding –
then those in Judea must flee to the mountains; 17 the one on the housetop must not go down to take what is in the house; 18 the one in the field must not turn back to get a coat.
It means that Jesus instructs us the we must just flee the disaster coming upon us. Correct? Now let us see the next verse (19)
Woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing infants in those days!
Why? Because those described are unable to flee. Now we see verse 20 in the same context.
Pray that your flight may not be in winter or on a sabbath.
Why? Because of the difficulty to flee. Obviously, winter would affect everyone. But who would sabbath affect in terms of the ability to flee? Only those who are bound by OT rules of keeping the sabbath. Those who keep the sabbath the NT way have no restriction to flee because, from my understanding of other scriptures of the NT, man's life takes precedence over sabbath rules. Therefore it appears that the allusion to sabbath is not an endorsement but an acknowldegement. That is why I don't see it as an explicit command to keep the sabbath. I could offer you explicit commands for other commandments to show what an explicit command is. See Lk 18:20. There is no ambiguity there.
You know the commandments: ‘You shall not commit adultery; You shall not murder; You shall not steal; You shall not bear false witness; Honor your father and mother.’”
Simon, you don't have to agree with me. this is how I see it.
but the way you see it shows misunderstanding of the old testament. Jews have always been allowed to break Sabbath, andalmost every other law, to save a life.
wasn’t knocking you Sarah just my thought on the translation. as I said it’s but accurate imo but it does speak to truth anyway. describes wmscog well
Simon wrote:
but the way you see it shows misunderstanding of the old testament. Jews have always been allowed to break Sabbath, andalmost every other law, to save a life.
I tried searching but came up with nothing. Example?
There is a Hebrew expression Pikuach nefesh (roughly translated saving life) it is a concept that in order to save a life most negative commandments become suspended.
Verses that form the basis of principle include:
Leviticus 18:5 Keep my decrees and laws, for the person who obeys them will live by them. I am the Lord.
Ezekiel 20:11 I gave them my decrees and made known to them my laws, by which the person who obeys them will live.
Leviticus 19:16 “‘Do not go about spreading slander among your people. “‘Do not do anything that endangers your neighbor’s life. I am the Lord.
The first two verses imply that the purpose for God's law is to live by which means if you will die from it it does not serve God's purpose behind the law.
The third verse demonstrates the need to not harm of others.
Even Jesus seems to support this concept with his claim it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath.
Ok, that makes sense. Do not do anything that will harm your neighbor. I'm assuming your neighbor means those who believe and obey God?
Not as jews interpret
Ok, Simon. I get you.
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