[genny]

In another thread, fromtheotherside, speaking of the materials presented againt the wmscog, said "none of your evidences speak for itself.  if you have such evidence present it without your explanation."

I presented several 'evidences without explanation' there, but I think it would be a good idea to take each one separately into its own thread.  Here's the fourth one:

Regarding the President's Call to Service Awards that the WMSCOG displays: The award level shown for "World Mission Society Church of God" is not available for groups, only individuals.  And the awards shown for "Kim Joo-cheol" and "Zahng Gil-jah" are only available to United States citizens.

I originally did not link to my research about it, because fromtheotherside did not want explanation, but if you'd like to see the research, I've collected it here:

http://encountering-ahnsahnghong.blogspot.com/2011/11/letting-your-light-shineor-seeking.html

I only saw one comment regarding this point in that thread.  Here it is, copied from https://www.examiningthewmscog.com/forum/topic.php?id=4486&page=2 :

justasitis wrote:

I believe that the 'President's Call to Service Award" as shown, displayed and lauded by wmscog is a way of showing that totally outside of any religious beliefs, interpretations of the bible, whether or not there is God the Mother and God the Father, is a clear demonstration of manipulating and lying about what the church does and how it is supposedly so highly esteemed. If anyone were to look on the US government's website for how and to whom this award can be given, it is clear that wmscog, or at at least Kim Joo-cheol and Zahng Gil-Jah do not meet the basic criteria of being US citizens. This is a very simple yet very clear way of showing that this supposed church is not what it says it is. There is no way, according to the rules of this service award, that they could ever have been recipients of it. I can only speculate as to the reasons for wmscog wanting to demonstrate that they have been awarded this, but it seems to be to be very clearly invalid ie. they are not telling the truth.

I recall this being discussed somewhere else, but I can't find it at the moment.

Open for comment…

[genny]

[genny]

Well, fromtheotherside, I still cannot access that website.  Since I cannot read for myself what exactly she said, I cannot make much comment on it. 

Would I post in the same place with two different names to enhance my point (if that is what happened)?  No, I wouldn't.  One name at a time is enough for me.  But Elie has already taken responsibility for it.

If you saw the ip and email addresses on your screen, then you would be an admin of the site.  Regular people don't see that when they access blogs and forums.  Why don't you look at wmscog members who have posted there and see if any of them have same ips but different names?  They have done it here before (https://www.examiningthewmscog.com/forum/topic.php?id=910), and on my own blog, only no one blew up about it.

By avoiding the question in this way you are commiting "tu quoque" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tu_Coque_Defence), which is the logical fallacy of appeal to hypocrisy.  A person may act hypocritically but that doesn't make the argument invalid.  Like this:

Dad smokes.  Son smokes.  Dad tells son, "You shouldn't smoke.  It's bad for your health."  Son says, "But you smoke."

Son has committed tu quoque by attacking the dad and not addressing the argument of "you shouldn't smoke because it's bad for your health."  It's a kind of ad hominem.

Please don't play the avoidance game and address the question.  What do you think about people lying (as explained above), and how the wmscog got these awards?

[Simon]

Genny you can’t see it but he didn’t see the ip the admin posted it on examiningthewmscog.co and he just copy paste

[fromtheotherside]

Genny I'm not avoiding, Even in a court of law, witnesses, and testimonies, and both sides are highly scrutinzed.  Right now I have a point, that has gone unaddressed.  Ad hominem is an argument that is meant to protect the person giving the evidence, but it is faulty.  The person saying those words are just as important as the words its self.  

Dad smokes……. you gave this argument.  This does not fit with what this site was made for.  In this argument then it is implied that this site is a cult, and both side do the same thing, but only one side brings up the point.  It doesn't fit.  

You see it is more  of a trust issue.  Even a witness in court has to trustworthy.    Will you believe the testimony of a murderer against another murderer.  Some might but most will not.  If the witness is a cereal murderer, how do we know he's not the one who did himself and trying to put blame on the defendant (not attacking but, how do we or the people who will look at this page know that Elie, again not attacking but just pointing out, didn't make up one of the people and made up a story). This is a valid point. These are the reasons why  everyone is highly scrutinized.   but to point out the fact I'm not on trial the chruch of God is not, we have no obligation to answer anything, nor do we have to, people will come and go they always do, that will not change even if this site exists or not. so if you want an answer from us you will be scrutinized.  I'm not trying to come off harshly and am not calling you a murderer but just trying to bring a point accross.  What I mean is if you don't answer my questions even though you think they are off topic then you shouldn't expect me to answer yours.  And I did see you tryed to go to the site and look at what I'm talking about and tryed to but you couldn't get in, I did read that in your comment.  But I'm not just talking about you genny I'm talking about all Admin even.  

 Also if you can believe Elie's reason or explanation of "her friend" doesn't mean I have to accept it.  You don't believe our explanations, and ask for Proof, then why should we believe  yours,  Do you understand this works both ways?  Your side is no more honest or righteous in the eyes of people then we are.  Do you understand? I hope this doesn't sound harsh I'm not trying to make it sound that way.  

Also everything on this site is circumstancial, right now alot of these things on this site are just bullets.

A investigator finds a bullet, Can he point out who is the murderer? no.  he has to find the gun.  can he then point out the murderer? no. He has to get fingerprints, even if a gun is registered to someone doesn't mean game over, you have to prove it was in his hands,  let's say you did prove it was him who shot it, can you get him for murder? NO, you have to have a motive! Just cuz you put 1+1+1 doesn't lead to a conviction!  You don't have anything that leads to a conviction, but just a bullet and some cases a gun.. but do you have everything no you don't.  

Also I think you guys have a hard time accepting that a local church doesn't speak for all of us or does it speak for Father and mother.  And a persons view point is not shared by everyone.

You know there was this recruit that I had went through basic training with.  Our RDC was a hard ass, he was tough, and cut no slack with us.  He  was constantly in our faces but thats the way they should be, and he didn't do it to smite us, and mostly everyone gets it, but this recruit he just took it as "what's his problem" "chill down" and he had a hard time I mean he almost wanted to cry one day, we knew why an RDC acts like that.  I'll just let you guys think about this maybe you guys should just think about it, and later on when we talk maybe we might understand eachother a little better. 

[Emily]

fromtheotherside wrote:

The person saying those words are just as important as the words its self.  

Dad smokes……. you gave this argument.  This does not fit with what this site was made for.  In this argument then it is implied that this site is a cult, and both side do the same thing, but only one side brings up the point.  It doesn't fit.  

I am confused about how you compare your analogy to Genny's.  In her example, the father and son both smoked.  You are suggesting that the wmscog and "this site" are cults?  How is this website a cult?  This is where I'm stuck.  Can you please explain?

 

fromtheotherside wrote:

 but to point out the fact I'm not on trial the chruch of God is not, we have no obligation to answer anything, nor do we have to, people will come and go they always do, that will not change even if this site exists or not. so if you want an answer from us you will be scrutinized. 

First of all, I think that you need to recognize that the wms is a tax-exempt "church".  In the US that opens them up to scrutiny.  There is supposed to be a level of transparency that does not exist in the wms.  Individuals are not subject to the same scrutiny, unless they want to start raising money from people and claiming a tax exemption.  That's just the way the law works here.  Also, if the existence of this site is so trivial as you make it seem, then why is the wms suing the admins of this site?  Whether you think the lawsuit is justified or not, the wms will have to answer questions about the award in question and many other things in court.  I guess we will have to see what happens when the public record becomes available.  If it is uncovered in the court proceedings that the wms did lie and inappropriately issued the award, what will you think about that?  Will you say that it is ok?  Not a big deal to you?  If Zhang wasn't supposed to get the award, and she knew this (shouldn't she know since she's "god" according to the wms, but she did anyway because the wms decided to ignore the rules, shouldn't she have corrected this?  Shouldn't she have prevented this from happening since she is "god" and should have seen it coming?  And if she is above the rules because she is "god" then why does she need to be recognized by this earthly (beneath her) award?

[Elievalkyrie]

FTOS, even if you can't accept my explanation, which I am not forcing on anyone,you can't use that as an excuse to NOT answer the questions of other people here. As you can see, I have already explained. It's your choice what to believe. END OF THE STORY. If you want to convict me so badly, can you just wait for the Judgement Day for that, what are you hurrying for?

With your comments, it is very easily seen that you are just redirecting the topic to avoid answering the questions. If you are going to this forum with the purpose of defending WMSCOG then I am sorry to say that you are not doing a very good job on it. Your actions only make them look bad all the more. Though I guess I should be thankful for that since it is helping with this websites goal. 

Anyway guys, I would just like to ask if it is confirmed that Kim (Pastor) really is not a U.S citizen. Do we have proof on that and if we do, can someone provide it?

[fromtheotherside]

Elie, not convicting you, what I'm making aware of is, if you can make up a fake person and even act like a member of the church of god, whose to say, someone didn't make up fake stories in order to slander the church of God.  That is the point I'm making, not to convict you. As I pointed out again and again. So really how many of those testimonials are true, and just because Admin or Genny confirm them does not make  them true.  What if I were to give an answer for one of your accusations, and you say where's the proof and I say I confirmed it so it's true, will you back down and accept that? no you won't, then it should be the same for us and the visitors of this site.

I will post my comment again so you can read it.  Emily said insince we are a NPO we are open to scrutiny and should be transparent, that's true, but that is only to the authorities if we refuse to be open on this site, that's our right.  If everyone here want's to keep secrets, like about themselves, for instance If I ask something about you Elie and you refuse to answer it, then we also have that right to refuse your questions about the church of God.  So there is not evading of answering your questions, it's flat out refusal.   I'm not worried about making us look bad, because 1000's and 100,000's  of us don't care how we look on this site, we will still believe and have faith in our Father and Mother.  

Trivial is the word for this one topic about the award you guys go after us for, because we have hundereds that were personally handed to us by governers, president of korea, organizations, and words of praise from even the U.N on video praise from the president of Gabon.  Why is it important??? the only importance it has is to fulfill prophecy, Jerusalem will recieve praise from the people of this world.  That is the only importance it has.  

[fromtheotherside]

fromtheotherside wrote:

Genny I'm not avoiding, Even in a court of law, witnesses, and testimonies, and both sides are highly scrutinzed.  Right now I have a point, that has gone unaddressed.  Ad hominem is an argument that is meant to protect the person giving the evidence, but it is faulty.  The person saying those words are just as important as the words its self.  

Dad smokes……. you gave this argument.  This does not fit with what this site was made for.  In this argument then it is implied that this site is a cult, and both side do the same thing, but only one side brings up the point.  It doesn't fit.  

You see it is more  of a trust issue.  Even a witness in court has to trustworthy.    Will you believe the testimony of a murderer against another murderer.  Some might but most will not.  If the witness is a cereal murderer, how do we know he's not the one who did himself and trying to put blame on the defendant (not attacking but, how do we or the people who will look at this page know that Elie, again not attacking but just pointing out, didn't make up one of the people and made up a story). This is a valid point. These are the reasons why  everyone is highly scrutinized.   but to point out the fact I'm not on trial the chruch of God is not, we have no obligation to answer anything, nor do we have to, people will come and go they always do, that will not change even if this site exists or not. so if you want an answer from us you will be scrutinized.  I'm not trying to come off harshly and am not calling you a murderer but just trying to bring a point accross.  What I mean is if you don't answer my questions even though you think they are off topic then you shouldn't expect me to answer yours.  And I did see you tryed to go to the site and look at what I'm talking about and tryed to but you couldn't get in, I did read that in your comment.  But I'm not just talking about you genny I'm talking about all Admin even.  

 Also if you can believe Elie's reason or explanation of "her friend" doesn't mean I have to accept it.  You don't believe our explanations, and ask for Proof, then why should we believe  yours,  Do you understand this works both ways?  Your side is no more honest or righteous in the eyes of people then we are.  Do you understand? I hope this doesn't sound harsh I'm not trying to make it sound that way.  

Also everything on this site is circumstancial, right now alot of these things on this site are just bullets.

A investigator finds a bullet, Can he point out who is the murderer? no.  he has to find the gun.  can he then point out the murderer? no. He has to get fingerprints, even if a gun is registered to someone doesn't mean game over, you have to prove it was in his hands,  let's say you did prove it was him who shot it, can you get him for murder? NO, you have to have a motive! Just cuz you put 1+1+1 doesn't lead to a conviction!  You don't have anything that leads to a conviction, but just a bullet and some cases a gun.. but do you have everything no you don't.  

Also I think you guys have a hard time accepting that a local church doesn't speak for all of us or does it speak for Father and mother.  And a persons view point is not shared by everyone.

You know there was this recruit that I had went through basic training with.  Our RDC was a hard ass, he was tough, and cut no slack with us.  He  was constantly in our faces but thats the way they should be, and he didn't do it to smite us, and mostly everyone gets it, but this recruit he just took it as "what's his problem" "chill down" and he had a hard time I mean he almost wanted to cry one day, we knew why an RDC acts like that.  I'll just let you guys think about this maybe you guys should just think about it, and later on when we talk maybe we might understand eachother a little better. 

[Simon]

2 Timothy 4:2 Preach the Word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage–with great patience and careful instruction.

[genny]

I do understand your point, fromtheotherside.  It's hard to trust people.  But don't let this be a never ending circle with no one willing to listen out of fear of being deceived.  You may believe you are trustworthy person, but how do any of us really know that.  Likewise, I feel I am a trustworthy person, but there's really no way for you to know that.  That's one problem of having these conversations this way.

I wanted desperately to talk with my sister about all these things because I believed we could trust each other.  And since we know each other and love each other, we'd be able to have honests conversation and really make a search for truth.  I can't tell you how sad I was the day she told me she didn't want to talk with me about it anymore.  And the day she told me she didn't even want to read the Bible with me anymore was heartbreaking too.

She told me I should talk to someone from a nearby "Zion" instead, but I said how would it be better to talk to someone who doesn't know me or care about me?  I tried, but it didn't work out well.  I told my sister that if she wouldn't talk with me to help me understand her beliefs, that I would continue studying and pursuing knowledge about the wmscog by any other way I could–which has resulted in my work here on the internet.  I wonder what would have happened if she had not withdrawn from me that way.

Anyway, I don't know why I'm mentioning all this except to say that I can understand why you have difficulty trusting people you don't really know.

That's one reason I've brought up these few points that are fact-based.  They are verifiable and you don't have to wonder about if I'm lying or quibble about Bible interpretations.  You can just look up the facts and then compare. 

It's not helpful to argue about who is more or less trustworthy when it means you avoid addressing the facts.  In a court of law example (like yours), why argue about how trustworthy the defendant and plaintiff are when you have a video of the crime in action as evidence?

There's significant factual evidence that your 'mother god' is not a god at all.  Don't ignore it.  Sure you don't have an obligation to answer here in public, but I hope you will find the answer for yourself at least. 

And I will say, the more people criticize the question instead of giving an answer, the worse it looks for the wmscog.  If there was nothing to hide, why wouldn't the wmscog come right out and say so?  Have you tried asking these questions yourself to one of your leaders?  (I bet I can guess the kind of answers you'd get.)

How about, instead of speaking for the wmscog, you just speak for yourself and share what you believe?  You can make the distinction if you need to when you write, "I believe…." or "The wmscog teaches…."

About this particular question, you said it was "trivial."  I don't think it is.  I think God's true church led by "God Herself" in the flesh would not deceptively obtain awards, and would not use such deceptive awards to increase their status.  If these awards were not obtained deceptively, why doesn't the wmscog just come right out and tell us that Zahng and Kim are U.S. citizens.  I'm sure if they are, they have a passport for proof.  (Wait… didn't someone tell us that 'mother' doesn't even leave Korea?)

If they did, that would clear up two of the awards, and they'd only have to address the group award that is not available to groups.  (I'm not sure how they can explain that one, though.)

[genny]

Simon wrote:

Genny you can't see it but he didn't see the ip the admin posted it on examiningthewmscog.co and he just copy paste

Thanks, Simon.  Wish I could see what you are all talking about.

Simon wrote:

2 Timothy 4:2 Preach the Word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage–with great patience and careful instruction.

And thanks for the good word too!

[Sarah2013]

This particular debate doesn’t interest me as much but I have a question but starts of as a short story. A man walks into a deli, steals a piece of pizza or say the whole pizza tray and runs out. He is apprehended later sitting under the bridge as he eats the pizza he just stole with his two children and wife. So, I ask: did he sin? Then here is the next one, a man walks into a store pulls out a weapon and kills someone, he is apprehended later also. Did he sin? later these two are before God at the end of their lives for judgment, do you think the two men will or will not be going to hell(let’s assume hell is total annihilation)? Or do you think only one will? Assuming they both never repented.

[Elievalkyrie]

fromtheotherside wrote:

Elie, not convicting you, what I'm making aware of is, if you can make up a fake person and even act like a member of the church of god, whose to say, someone didn't make up fake stories in order to slander the church of God.  That is the point I'm making, not to convict you. As I pointed out again and again. So really how many of those testimonials are true, and just because Admin or Genny confirm them does not make  them true.  What if I were to give an answer for one of your accusations, and you say where's the proof and I say I confirmed it so it's true, will you back down and accept that? no you won't, then it should be the same for us and the visitors of this site.

As we have said, it doesn't matter what you believe, it is what others will believe. Since you are 100% sure you are in the right track and refuse to listen to anyone else that is stating differently, that is your choice. This website and the statement we claim here is for those who are seeking the truth and no matter what you do or say here, you cannot change the truth.

I will post my comment again so you can read it.  Emily said insince we are a NPO we are open to scrutiny and should be transparent, that's true, but that is only to the authorities if we refuse to be open on this site, that's our right.  If everyone here want's to keep secrets, like about themselves, for instance If I ask something about you Elie and you refuse to answer it, then we also have that right to refuse your questions about the church of God.  

Are you referring to the fact that I refused to give my and my brother's real name in the examiningthewmscog.co website when you requested it? That is kinda personal, what's up with that? You do know you guys sue people, right? Also I think I will have a much more chance in getting my brother out of wmscog if you don't know my name. That is my right and if you also refuse to answer question about your church then that is so fine with me, why didn't you just say it in the first place? 

So there is not evading of answering your questions, it's flat out refusal.   I'm not worried about making us look bad, because 1000's and 100,000's  of us don't care how we look on this site, we will still believe and have faith in our Father and Mother.  

Trivial is the word for this one topic about the award you guys go after us for, because we have hundereds that were personally handed to us by governers, president of korea, organizations, and words of praise from even the U.N on video praise from the president of Gabon.

For a while there, you sounded pretty boastful…What happened to Matthew 6 when it was said "Beware of practicing your righteousness before other people in order to be seen by them, for then you will have no reward from your Father who is in heaven. “Thus, when you give to the needy, sound no trumpet before you, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may be praised by others. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward. But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, so that your giving may be in secret. And your Father who sees in secret will reward you." Using these verse, I guess when you made it public that you do those "good" things, you have already gotten your reward. 

Why is it important??? the only importance it has is to fulfill prophecy, Jerusalem will recieve praise from the people of this world.  That is the only importance it has.  

Are you saying that it NEEDED to be done in order to fill the prophecy criteria? So you're like, "Oh this one is included in the prophecy list, let's do this one!" And why would you need to receive praise from the world? 

[Sarah2013]

It is so not jesus’ way. At least they claim he is ahng, right? Or should I say part of the triune God. See we are suppose to be mere mortals and Mama is god. So why is mama going that far to sue her lost child or maybe she is considered the kid in the city of refuge with the unpardonable sin. Don’t you guys see how silly this is? How can this sincerely be God, the creator of the universe who is not governed by money. The bible says the camels on a thousand hills belongs to him. Meaning, all good is his , so why does the universal God need five million or so dollars? Why is money a factor to this God or should I say god? God created man in his image and likeness. He is God and need not money. Can someone tell me the guy or gal Jesus took to court? Can someone tell me how much Jesus got from it? Nonsense question right? Exactly! Jesus was Magnificent. Never wanting that anyone perish. He knew judas would betray him, yet…. Exemplifies love. Thank God for trials in life cause it sure brought me closer to understanding him.

POSTED 4 MINUTES AGO # EDIT QUOTE

[Rahab]

FTOS’s comment amount the “only importance it has is to fulfill prophecy, Jerusalem will receive praise form the people of this world.” What exact Bible verses are being used to teach this? What is Jerusalem being praised for? It’s restoration? It’s good works? Being the city of God?

[Simon]

Isaiah 62:6 I have posted watchmen on your walls, O Jerusalem;

they will never be silent day or night.

You who call on the Lord,

give yourselves no rest,

7 and give him no rest till he establishes Jerusalem

and makes her the praise of the earth

[Rahab]

Isaiah 63:6-7 upon your walls, O Jerusalem, I have posted sentinels; all day and all night they shall never be silent. You who remind The Lord, take no rest until he establishes Jerusalem and makes it renounced throughout the earth. (NRSV).

So basically the entire earth will rejoice at the Lord’s restoration of the Holy City in Jerusalem. Forgive me, but I do not see the connection between this and man made awards bestowed upon the World Mission Society Church of God which also claims be to a Non-prophet corporation. I will still seek clarification….

[genny]

Rahab wrote:

Isaiah 63:6-7 upon your walls, O Jerusalem, I have posted sentinels; all day and all night they shall never be silent. You who remind The Lord, take no rest until he establishes Jerusalem and makes it renounced throughout the earth. (NRSV).

So basically the entire earth will rejoice at the Lord's restoration of the Holy City in Jerusalem. Forgive me, but I do not see the connection between this and man made awards bestowed upon the World Mission Society Church of God which also claims be to a Non-prophet corporation. I will still seek clarification….

First they connect that "Mother God" is Heavenly Jerusalem" (Ga. 4:26), then they take the verses about "Jerusalem" and make them out to be about "Mother."

The first connection (Gal. 4:26) does not work, so the rest falls apart.  But even if you go with their premise that "Jerusalem" in Isaiah 63:6-7 could mean a "Mother God," it still doesn't explain why they need to manufacture these awards.

@fromtheotherside, following your train of thought, if this award is fraudulent, how can we trust the others?  How many other awards were received by questionable means?  I don't want to go that direction, but you see how that line of thought works against you as well as for you, right?  So let's just focus on the issue at hand.

[fromtheotherside]

genny wrote:

Rahab wrote:

Isaiah 63:6-7 upon your walls, O Jerusalem, I have posted sentinels; all day and all night they shall never be silent. You who remind The Lord, take no rest until he establishes Jerusalem and makes it renounced throughout the earth. (NRSV).

So basically the entire earth will rejoice at the Lord's restoration of the Holy City in Jerusalem. Forgive me, but I do not see the connection between this and man made awards bestowed upon the World Mission Society Church of God which also claims be to a Non-prophet corporation. I will still seek clarification….

First they connect that "Mother God" is Heavenly Jerusalem" (Ga. 4:26), then they take the verses about "Jerusalem" and make them out to be about "Mother."

The first connection (Gal. 4:26) does not work, so the rest falls apart.  But even if you go with their premise that "Jerusalem" in Isaiah 63:6-7 could mean a "Mother God," it still doesn't explain why they need to manufacture these awards.

@fromtheotherside, following your train of thought, if this award is fraudulent, how can we trust the others?  How many other awards were received by questionable means?  I don't want to go that direction, but you see how that line of thought works against you as well as for you, right?  So let's just focus on the issue at hand.

Well actually you can use it.  But the thing is for you, you have no way of proving anything.  Why don't you go to the governments that gave the awards and ask them why. Go to the korean president and ask if the merit we recieved was worthy, ask the governers and city halls in the US if the comendations and awards they gave us is rightfully given.  We don't have to prove it to you, you have no evidence.  But I have Elie's own writing to prove my point.  Thats the difference.  Well get going you have very many many many many miles to travel to visit all the countries and places to prove your point, or I hope you have a lot of extra cash to make hundereds of phone calls.  

[Elievalkyrie]

Well actually you can just submit a report of fraud here”http://www.presidentialserviceawards.gov/tg/help/dspReportFraud.cfm and then wait and see what happens.

[fromtheotherside]

Wow Elie your so smart, you want a cookie?