Evidence regarding the President's Service Award

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  • #7132
    genny
    Participant

    In another thread, fromtheotherside, speaking of the materials presented againt the wmscog, said "none of your evidences speak for itself.  if you have such evidence present it without your explanation."

    I presented several 'evidences without explanation' there, but I think it would be a good idea to take each one separately into its own thread.  Here's the fourth one:

    Regarding the President's Call to Service Awards that the WMSCOG displays: The award level shown for "World Mission Society Church of God" is not available for groups, only individuals.  And the awards shown for "Kim Joo-cheol" and "Zahng Gil-jah" are only available to United States citizens.

    I originally did not link to my research about it, because fromtheotherside did not want explanation, but if you'd like to see the research, I've collected it here:

    http://encountering-ahnsahnghong.blogspot.com/2011/11/letting-your-light-shineor-seeking.html

    I only saw one comment regarding this point in that thread.  Here it is, copied from https://www.examiningthewmscog.com/forum/topic.php?id=4486&page=2 :

    justasitis wrote:

    I believe that the 'President's Call to Service Award" as shown, displayed and lauded by wmscog is a way of showing that totally outside of any religious beliefs, interpretations of the bible, whether or not there is God the Mother and God the Father, is a clear demonstration of manipulating and lying about what the church does and how it is supposedly so highly esteemed. If anyone were to look on the US government's website for how and to whom this award can be given, it is clear that wmscog, or at at least Kim Joo-cheol and Zahng Gil-Jah do not meet the basic criteria of being US citizens. This is a very simple yet very clear way of showing that this supposed church is not what it says it is. There is no way, according to the rules of this service award, that they could ever have been recipients of it. I can only speculate as to the reasons for wmscog wanting to demonstrate that they have been awarded this, but it seems to be to be very clearly invalid ie. they are not telling the truth.

    I recall this being discussed somewhere else, but I can't find it at the moment.

    Open for comment…

  • #53578

    fromtheotherside
    Participant

    In the words of MPL "is this it?, I thought it was something big"  and as your co members actions show,  the end justifies the means, (well actually elie's end was more for herself though, hmm that's another thing to look at. ) we did it to glorify God, who care's right, we had a great reason, so what ever we do get that doesn't matter.

    #53579

    Joshua
    Participant

    Are you honestly trying to justify this deception when you caused such an uproar about Elie trying to get an answer out of your group? Please don't talk out of both sides of your face. Leave that to the politicians.

    #53580

    Elievalkyrie
    Participant

    LOL. At least I didn't claim any awards from the U.S that I didn't actually received. If I was caught with that kind of lie and it was made public, I would have died with humiliation. ^____^ FTOS, thank you for confirming to us that your group really do teach "the end justifies the means". I can show it to my friends AND to new members of wmscog. I am very curious what they would think of it.

    #53581

    Simon
    Participant

    God doesn't condone fraud

    #53582

    MountainMom
    Participant

    And, FTOS, no this "isn't just it."  it's everything all added together that makes this "church" what it is.  i will do what I can to help anyone out who is experiencing problems there.

    #53583

    genny
    Participant

    fromtheotherside wrote:

    In the words of MPL "is this it?, I thought it was something big"  and as your co members actions show,  the end justifies the means, (well actually elie's end was more for herself though, hmm that's another thing to look at. ) we did it to glorify God, who care's right, we had a great reason, so what ever we do get that doesn't matter.

    Do you believe in "the end justifies the means"?  And do you believe that includes lying?  (Never mind about Elie, what do you believe?)

    One of God's commands is not to lie.  Do you believe He meant that?  Or do you believe lying is ok as long as it benefits the 'true church' somehow?  For example, would it be ok to lie on your taxes so you have more money to give the church, or to lie concerning building permits so that the church doesn't have any trouble with its building project, that kind of thing?  Does God care about His people lying? Does lying glorify God?  I'd really like to know what you think about people lying.

    Do you mean the you (the wmscog) had a "great reason" to lie so you could get the award?  What do you mean by that statement?

    "Who cares"?  Do you think President Obama would care that one of his form letters is being used to make people think that he has personally, and specially, honored the wmscog (and Zahng and Kim) for their work?

    #53584

    Simon
    Participant

    genny wrote:

    fromtheotherside wrote:

    In the words of MPL "is this it?, I thought it was something big"  and as your co members actions show,  the end justifies the means, (well actually elie's end was more for herself though, hmm that's another thing to look at. ) we did it to glorify God, who care's right, we had a great reason, so what ever we do get that doesn't matter.

    Do you believe in "the end justifies the means"?  And do you believe that includes lying?  (Never mind about Elie, what do you believe?)

    One of God's commands is not to lie.  Do you believe He meant that?  Or do you believe lying is ok as long as it benefits the 'true church' somehow?  For example, would it be ok to lie on your taxes so you have more money to give the church, or to lie concerning building permits so that the church doesn't have any trouble with its building project, that kind of thing?  Does God care about His people lying? Does lying glorify God?  I'd really like to know what you think about people lying.

    Do you mean the you (the wmscog) had a "great reason" to lie so you could get the award?  What do you mean by that statement?

    "Who cares"?  Do you think President Obama would care that one of his form letters is being used to make people think that he has personally, and specially, honored the wmscog (and Zahng and Kim) for their work?

    I would like to point out you can legally write off tithes and offerings so you really wouldn't need to lie to have the money to do so.

     

    Also I was told the command is to not bear false witness against your neighbour so if it isn't against a neighbour its fine. Idkif they still teach that

    #53585

    genny
    Participant

    Simon wrote:

    I would like to point out you can legally write off tithes and offerings so you really wouldn't need to lie to have the money to do so.

    I do that, and it's a great benefit.  But I was thinking of people who would cheat on their taxes to pay less tax, get more money back, and say it's to be able to give some of it back to God.

    Also I was told the command is to not bear false witness against your neighbour so if it isn't against a neighbour its fine. Idkif they still teach that

    That's a funny thought.  It's not ok if it's my neighbor, but it is ok if it's someone I don't know, or a business or government or something like that?

    #53586

    Simon
    Participant

    no it’s okay if you’re not falsely accusing someone else of bad

    not much better mind you lol

    #53587

    genny
    Participant

    Simon wrote:

    no it's okay if you're not falsely accusing someone else of bad

    not much better mind you lol

    Ha! 🙂  So God doesn't care if I falsely claiming someone did good?  Or lying that someone didn't do the bad that they really did?

    How about lying about how much something costs, or about how much work I did for my employer, or maybe about my job history or relationship status…?  There are lots of ways to lie besides falsely accusing someone else of bad.

    #53588

    Simon
    Participant

    as far as exodus 20 that’s all it’s limited to taken literally. but God expects us to use our mind

    #53589

    genny
    Participant

    When Jesus says it in the New Testament, He doesn't include the "against your neighbor" part, only the "false witness" part.

    #53590

    Simon
    Participant

    false witness isn’t the same as lying just a form of it. but again we can still understand God hates a lying tongue proverbs 6:17

    #53591

    Elievalkyrie
    Participant

    From what I understand in FTOS’ point from our discussion about God and Sin, he thinks that it is okay if God lies because He is above the law.

    If I could accept this then my understanding in this matter is that God doesn’t do evil, lying is evil since God lied it’s not really evil therefore I can do it also.

    That is what they are basically teaching.

    #53592

    genny
    Participant

    I remember fromtheotherside saying that if God lied it was not evil because He is above the law, but if people lie it is evil.  Do I remember right, fromtheotherside?  (I hope you are reading so you can give your input here.)

    Since we are talking about people's actions here, I'd like to verify what the wmscog teaches about people lying.

    That's a good verse, Simon.  Here it is with some others about lying:

    Proverbs 6:16-19 "There are six things the LORD hates, seven that are detestable to him: haughty eyes, a lying tongue, hands that shed innocent bloos, a heart that devises wicked schemes, feet that are quick to rush into evil, a false witness who pours out lies and a person who stirs up conflict in the community."

    Proverbs 12:22 "The LORD detests lying lips, but he delights in people who are trustworthy."

    Hosea 4:1-2 "Here the word of the LORD you Israelites, because the LORD has a charge to bring against you who live in the land: 'There is no faithfulness, no love, no acknowledgement of God in the land.  There is only cursing, lying and murder, stealing and adultery…'"

    Leviticus 19:11 "Do not steal.  Do not lie.  Do not deceive one another."

    Psalm 5:6 "You destroy those who tell lies.  The bloodthirsty and deceitful, you LORD, detest."

    Mark 7:21-22 "For it is from within, out of a person’s heart, that evil thoughts come—sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, greed, malice, deceit, lewdness, envy, slander, arrogance and folly."

    1 Peter 3:10 "For whoever would love life and see good days must keep their tongue from evil and their lips from deceitful speech."

    2 Corinthians 4:2 "Rather, we have renounced secret and shameful ways; we do not use deception, nor do we distort the word of God. On the contrary, by setting forth the truth plainly we commend ourselves to everyone’s conscience in the sight of God."

    Ephesians 4:25 "Therefore each of you must put off falsehood and speak truthfully to your neighbor, for we are all members of one body."

    There are a lot more, but that's probably enough to list here.  So even besides the 9th commandment, we know what God thinks of lying.  If someone was eager to follow the example of Jesus and the apostles, I don't think they would be lying.

    But I'd still like to hear from one of our current-wmscog friends here about this topic.

    #53593

    genny
    Participant

    Oh, but besides that question about lying…

    I'd also like to hear what the wmscog members have to say about the awards themselves.  How do you explain how the wmscog received these awards?

    #53594

    fromtheotherside
    Participant

    genny wrote:

    fromtheotherside wrote:

    In the words of MPL "is this it?, I thought it was something big"  and as your co members actions show,  the end justifies the means, (well actually elie's end was more for herself though, hmm that's another thing to look at. ) we did it to glorify God, who care's right, we had a great reason, so what ever we do get that doesn't matter.

    Do you believe in "the end justifies the means"?  And do you believe that includes lying?  (Never mind about Elie, what do you believe?)

    One of God's commands is not to lie.  Do you believe He meant that?  Or do you believe lying is ok as long as it benefits the 'true church' somehow?  For example, would it be ok to lie on your taxes so you have more money to give the church, or to lie concerning building permits so that the church doesn't have any trouble with its building project, that kind of thing?  Does God care about His people lying? Does lying glorify God?  I'd really like to know what you think about people lying.

    Do you mean the you (the wmscog) had a "great reason" to lie so you could get the award?  What do you mean by that statement?

    "Who cares"?  Do you think President Obama would care that one of his form letters is being used to make people think that he has personally, and specially, honored the wmscog (and Zahng and Kim) for their work?

    Never mind about the WMS, do you believe what she did was right? If you continually stay hush about the actions of people in this forum that are on you side, then you have no right to judge or bring up points about us.  If you or the people you work with cannot live up to the same principles you hold the WMS against then I'm sorry to say but that is hypocritical.  

    Was it ok to Elie to say all these things about lying and bringing up points about this and then turn around and do it herself?

    Does not God care?  Elie you used the argument "the end does not justify the means" do you still believe this, or did your actions speak for itself?

    Untill everyone speaks out about it and says what is right everyone here (except some people who are honest really honest and have spoken about this)  has no right to judge the wms unless they want to become hypocrites.  

    #53595

    fromtheotherside
    Participant

    Elievalkyrie wrote:

    LOL. At least I didn't claim any awards from the U.S that I didn't actually received. If I was caught with that kind of lie and it was made public, I would have died with humiliation. ^____^ FTOS, thank you for confirming to us that your group really do teach "the end justifies the means". I can show it to my friends AND to new members of wmscog. I am very curious what they would think of it.

    Elie, I am being frank an honest with you, I would be ashamed to be you after all the comments you made on the subject and then turning around and doing it yourself, I'm glad I'm a member of Church of God then a hypocrit, which by the way God condemns, and hates.  But you seem happy and glad about your actions, which is cowardly also.  

    #53596

    king34
    Participant

    you still dont answer the question…for get about elie and stopevading the question. I dont know if you noticed but this forum is bigger than eli. There is actually people here that want to listen to your answer.  sorry eli lol 

    #53597

    fromtheotherside
    Participant

    We from the other side are waiting for your answers.

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