- Topic
There has been a bit of a debate regarding the celebration of Christmas and it's origin. I have read many post regarding this celebration and it's origin. So now, here is my question, if Christmas is a pagan celebration or the like as some claim, then does that make the worship of a proven false god(s) ok? Here is why that particular debate holds no water compared to wmscog's doctrine and claim:
1. Christmas is a pagan holiday
2. Sunday is sun-god worship
3. Zahng Gil Jah is god – mother god. who is the bride of God, which makes her a second god aside from God himself. There are no real scripture supporting this idea or belief either except the one given as support by Wmscog Gal. 4:26, of which, by the way, is incorrect.
4. Ahnsanghong is the Holy Spirit/God. He left behind earthly children and his tombstone makes reference to that. He came from unbelieving parents originally. So God almighty, of all he could have chosen to be born into, he chose that which he is against. His books and the teaching of Wmscog have so many inconsistencies and descrepancies – the teaching of Wmscog and the teaching of Ahng are not in accordance.
5. Zahng Gil Jah, by the way does not move about the country. When was the last time she came to United States to spread the gospel of her son or her husband. Is she the bride of her husband or son.
6. Jesus only made mention of a father and not a mother.
Confusion! Confusion! Confusion! How can Christmas or sunday worship be bigger than the above?
I say that to say in very simple and plain English, If you want to keep at Christmas being a pagan holiday then for crying out loud. Keep your hands clean from sin. All of the above raises eyebrows but tell me, which do you think is really a problem, Christmas? Sunday worship? You got to be kidding me. If this is what Wmscog wants to hold onto, then you sincerely do not understand the God of the universe. To mimic him falsely is a serious sin.
^ Exactly.
emil wrote:
fromtheotherside wrote:
Emil, it is not only my opinion but of many protestants also. It is not just the Church of God that says this. But many christians view it as pagan also.
Sad if they believe that. The numbers cannot make a belief a fact. I already told you the logic is faulty. Half the world seems to believe it is OK to kill the unborn child. What do you think?
There is a difference to belief and fact, the history of christmas is that is stems from pagan celebration. This is fact. So if most indians believe cows are Gods does it make it true?
Sarah2013 wrote:
renita.payno wrote:
FTOS, I understand what you mean but I think to be more correct, if you're keeping Sunday as the Sabbath then there's a problem. Every year on the 1st day of the week following the PO there's a Resurrection worship service held which happens to be Sunday. Also, Dec 25th 2011 was celebrated as ASH's birthday which happens to be Christmas day.
I remember this very well because I was still a member at the time. So what should we call this when Ahang day falls on the same December 25th? Did we celebrate his day on a pagam day or not? This is the point Emil has been trying to get you to see, Ftos.
Sarah2013 wrote:
renita.payno wrote:
FTOS, I understand what you mean but I think to be more correct, if you're keeping Sunday as the Sabbath then there's a problem. Every year on the 1st day of the week following the PO there's a Resurrection worship service held which happens to be Sunday. Also, Dec 25th 2011 was celebrated as ASH's birthday which happens to be Christmas day.
I remember this very well because I was still a member at the time. So what should we call this when Ahang day falls on the same December 25th? Did we celebrate his day on a pagam day or not? This is the point Emil has been trying to get you to see, Ftos.
The word Christmas it self is of pagan origin. The day is not the big reason I'm against christmas it is the day the name the history that all make it what it is.
That is what you guys fail to see. Not just the day it's self but the entire history of Christmas starting from it's roots. So to compare that and on celebration of Ahnsahnghong's birthday one that day is not relevant.
fromtheotherside wrote:
emil wrote:
fromtheotherside wrote:
Emil, it is not only my opinion but of many protestants also. It is not just the Church of God that says this. But many christians view it as pagan also.
Sad if they believe that. The numbers cannot make a belief a fact. I already told you the logic is faulty. Half the world seems to believe it is OK to kill the unborn child. What do you think?
There is a difference to belief and fact, the history of christmas is that is stems from pagan celebration.
You are just repeating what I said. That is not history. That is conjecture because some dates seem to coincide. You and some others make that claim.
Your claim has no merit on multiple counts:
1. The claim of December 25th being a pagan celebration is dubious.
2. The claim that December 25th was chosen because it was a pagan celebration is even more unfounded.
emil wrote:
renita.payno wrote:
Lol.. I literally lol'd. You spelled my days wrong but it's ok. I forgive you. =)
I think absolutely everything the WMSCOG tries to teach boils down to strictly what the bible says aside from what anyone thinks or how they feel God would like something. I'm a very particular person and if I ask for something I want it exactly how I asked for it. Don't give it to me the way you think I'll like it. But me let have it the way I want it. You can never go wrong if you do exactly what I ask.
Renita, I honestly find it hard to figure when you are saying what you think and saying what the wmscog thinks. So I'm confused by your post.
Anyway this thread is going off topic. The point of this thread is the celebration of the birth of Jesus. Should we or should we not celebrate?
This post isn't off topic. I say we shouldn't celebrate it because it's not in the bible. I believe that once someone mixes something with Scripture or tries to make it a Holy day when it's not found in the bible we risk upsetting God. Like I said in the post, the WMSCOG argues, and I argued as a member, that it's not about what you think God likes or what you think is ok. It's about what God likes and what God says is ok. The bible describes what God likes and says is ok. If there is something not mentioned there I would rather be safe than sorry. That's why I gave the example of giving me something I wanted vs something you thought I wanted.
OK got it now. Thanks.
1. There are many things we do in our daily life, which are not mentioned in the bible. Stating that we must do only what is in the bible is a very narrow interpretation. The bible itself does not tell us that we should only do the things that are mentioned in the bible. In fact, at the end of his gospel John himself admits that many things are not written. Someday we must debate sola scriptura but right now let me leave it at what I have already said.
2. Does the bible state that Jesus was born? Yes. Does it give the exact date of his birth? No. If I love Jesus, am I allowed to celebrate his birth? I don't see why not. Why would God be angry with me for celebrating the birth of His son, the commencement of His plan for my redemption?
3. The WMSCOG preaches "bible alone" but it follows practices and beliefs that are not in scripture or just their own interpretation of scripture. How is it OK to say I follow scripture alone but twist the interpretation to do as I please?
So, this thread is a mix between celebrating Christmas and discrediting the WMSCOG because they do things that aren't in the bible????
Also, you MISSED a very important point in my comment. Christmas is considered a holy day by most people when the bible does not describe Christmas as a holy day. Do whatever you want to do. I don't care. Be gay, a murderer, an annoying attorney. But don't say your actions are justified because God permitted it when that's not true. Don't call your birthday a holy day when it's not. Don't call the 4th of July [for Americans] a Holy day when it's NOT. And just like you said "I don't see why not" is YOUR opinion. Personally, I would rather be safe than sorry. This subject is just 1 big circle. I honestly believe that no one will ever come to agreement on this and frankly, the horse is already dead.
The WMSCOG claims to teach exactly what Jesus taught which is not true.
Is there anything new to discuss? Are there any new teachings? New discoveries? I'm working on a new subject but it's hard to write a developing story…..
After leaving the church and being reunited with my family I came to understand these points about the rejection of Christmas by the WMSCOG:
1. Is like trying to make Jehovah’s witnesses to celebrate Christmas; is not going to happen.
2. What it is important is what Christmas means for you in your heart. “Heavenly Mother” is their real mother for them, thats the reality that makes them happy and gives them joy and purpose in their life. Christmas is a time that people dedicate to their families to be more united and also to remember the birth of Jesus Christ who is the Savior for manny. Jesus Christ being the savior is the Christian Reality that makes them happy and gives them joy and purpose in their life. Therefore, If they want to hate on Christmas; let it be. I am in peace with the fact that I do not hate on anyone it does not matter what their belief is and I also respect Muslims, Jews…etc, on their holidays.
3. Just because they Judge outsiders with their reality to come to the conclusion that everyone else is going to hell it does not means that outsiders are going to hell. Because if we Judge them with our reality, they will be the ones condemned. Therefore I decided to not judge them and whatever they say against me is okay because their reality is not my reality.
I hope these points to be helpful.
renita.payno wrote:
So, this thread is a mix between celebrating Christmas and discrediting the WMSCOG because they do things that aren't in the bible????
You can look at it that way if you want. The wmscog is the one who rebukes Christians for celebrating Christmas because it is not in the bible. Given that, isn't it proper for us to question why the wmscog does things which are not in the bible?
Also, you MISSED a very important point in my comment. Christmas is considered a holy day by most people when the bible does not describe Christmas as a holy day. Do whatever you want to do. I don't care. Be gay, a murderer, an annoying attorney. But don't say your actions are justified because God permitted it when that's not true. Don't call your birthday a holy day when it's not. Don't call the 4th of July [for Americans] a Holy day when it's NOT. And just like you said "I don't see why not" is YOUR opinion. Personally, I would rather be safe than sorry. This subject is just 1 big circle. I honestly believe that no one will ever come to agreement on this and frankly, the horse is already dead.
The WMSCOG claims to teach exactly what Jesus taught which is not true.
Is there anything new to discuss? Are there any new teachings? New discoveries? I'm working on a new subject but it's hard to write a developing story…..
You missed my points:
1. That the bible confirms that it does not cover everything.
2. What is celebrated is the holiness of the event rather than the holiness of the day.
Let me add that I have no problem with anybody who does not want to celebrate Christmas. I have a problem when someone tells me I should not celebrate it.
jellybean wrote:
After leaving the church and being reunited with my family I came to understand these points about the rejection of Christmas by the WMSCOG:
1. Is like trying to make Jehovah's witnesses to celebrate Christmas; is not going to happen.
2. What it is important is what Christmas means for you in your heart. "Heavenly Mother" is their real mother for them, thats the reality that makes them happy and gives them joy and purpose in their life. Christmas is a time that people dedicate to their families to be more united and also to remember the birth of Jesus Christ who is the Savior for manny. Jesus Christ being the savior is the Christian Reality that makes them happy and gives them joy and purpose in their life. Therefore, If they want to hate on Christmas; let it be. I am in peace with the fact that I do not hate on anyone it does not matter what their belief is and I also respect Muslims, Jews…etc, on their holidays.
3. Just because they Judge outsiders with their reality to come to the conclusion that everyone else is going to hell it does not means that outsiders are going to hell. Because if we Judge them with our reality, they will be the ones condemned. Therefore I decided to not judge them and whatever they say against me is okay because their reality is not my reality.
I hope these points to be helpful.
Thanks, Jellybean. That was helpful.
fromtheotherside wrote:
The word Christmas it self is of pagan origin. The day is not the big reason I'm against christmas it is the day the name the history that all make it what it is.
Please enlighten me. How is the word "Christmas" of pagan origin? Did you think it was related to some pagan god or something?
Are birthday celebrations in the Bible? COG celebrates birthdays. Cakes right there in their church. I don't remember reading in Bible that you should make a cake for someone's birthday and celebrate it right there in whatever church you are in. Yet the COG has done this. Isn't there an article somewhere about birthdays being pagan? Seems I read something about that somewhere.
I do not want to detract from the question on Christmas being pagan, so please answer that first if you can.
It's pagan because it's not in the bible, it was made falsely as a celebration that should not exist. Also Emil to bring up a fact that not all things are listed in the bible, so therefore it is okay, then who is the one to say what is okay and what is not. Again there is a gospel the Apostles preached and there are things that they would condemn, then if you use that argument there is no end to what we can do and what we cannot do.
Thanks MM for bringing it up because it shows how you don't know much of anything and profess that you do. First Birthdays are not celebrated in all churches. Especially in Korea. No church does that. But there you go again without any knowledge saying COG celebrates birthdays. It was only allowed because americans enjoy it. But to answer your question, yes we allowed it because we follow the one true God. It's like with the sabbath day. To put it in another light, worshiping God on sunday is not bad. But the reason why it turns bad is because you don't keep the true day sabbath at all. It's like driving without a license. Having a car and driving it is not bad, as long as you have the license. But when you drive without even having one then it is bad. We follow the truths so God said they can do it. That's all the excuse we need! ^^
The fact is we don't know Jesus's birthday so until we do we really cannot judge.
The best we can get is the first and seventh month as the best options so March/April or Sept/Oct
Although it may not have been intended that way december is splitting the difference
I didn't say that MM did, I was just clearing up the point that we don't celebrate birthdays in every chruch of God as she stated.
fromtheotherside wrote:
The word Christmas it self is of pagan origin. The day is not the big reason I'm against christmas it is the day the name the history that all make it what it is.
Pray do tell.
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