- Topic
There has been a bit of a debate regarding the celebration of Christmas and it's origin. I have read many post regarding this celebration and it's origin. So now, here is my question, if Christmas is a pagan celebration or the like as some claim, then does that make the worship of a proven false god(s) ok? Here is why that particular debate holds no water compared to wmscog's doctrine and claim:
1. Christmas is a pagan holiday
2. Sunday is sun-god worship
3. Zahng Gil Jah is god – mother god. who is the bride of God, which makes her a second god aside from God himself. There are no real scripture supporting this idea or belief either except the one given as support by Wmscog Gal. 4:26, of which, by the way, is incorrect.
4. Ahnsanghong is the Holy Spirit/God. He left behind earthly children and his tombstone makes reference to that. He came from unbelieving parents originally. So God almighty, of all he could have chosen to be born into, he chose that which he is against. His books and the teaching of Wmscog have so many inconsistencies and descrepancies – the teaching of Wmscog and the teaching of Ahng are not in accordance.
5. Zahng Gil Jah, by the way does not move about the country. When was the last time she came to United States to spread the gospel of her son or her husband. Is she the bride of her husband or son.
6. Jesus only made mention of a father and not a mother.
Confusion! Confusion! Confusion! How can Christmas or sunday worship be bigger than the above?
I say that to say in very simple and plain English, If you want to keep at Christmas being a pagan holiday then for crying out loud. Keep your hands clean from sin. All of the above raises eyebrows but tell me, which do you think is really a problem, Christmas? Sunday worship? You got to be kidding me. If this is what Wmscog wants to hold onto, then you sincerely do not understand the God of the universe. To mimic him falsely is a serious sin.
fromtheotherside wrote:
Then why don't you go ahead and explain it 100% correct for us, instead of just saying it's wrong. That's very cowardly, explain it.
Here's the explanation:
He made us in His image and likeness. True. Does God have a physical body? No. God is Spirit. He gave us His spirit, his spiritual nature and character. Both male and female are created in God's spiritual image. Our spirits are not male or female, just our human bodies are. Jesus explains this when he talks of life after the resurrection in Mt 22, Mk 12 and Lk 20.
^ Sorry sarah2013. When I posted my response I had not seen yours. However, it appears that our responses are fundamentally similar, though different in approach.
I am so behind in the conversation I had to go back to page 4! Sorry.
fromtheotherside wrote:
fromtheotherside wrote:
genny wrote:
fromtheotherside wrote:
It's pagan because it's not in the bible, it was made falsely as a celebration that should not exist. Also Emil to bring up a fact that not all things are listed in the bible, so therefore it is okay, then who is the one to say what is okay and what is not. Again there is a gospel the Apostles preached and there are things that they would condemn, then if you use that argument there is no end to what we can do and what we cannot do.
You said the word "Christmas" is pagan. I asked you to explain how you think the word "Christmas" is pagan. [edited to correct my typo]
Thanks MM for bringing it up because it shows how you don't know much of anything and profess that you do. First Birthdays are not celebrated in all churches. Especially in Korea. No church does that. But there you go again without any knowledge saying COG celebrates birthdays. It was only allowed because americans enjoy it. But to answer your question, yes we allowed it because we follow the one true God. It's like with the sabbath day. To put it in another light, worshiping God on sunday is not bad. But the reason why it turns bad is because you don't keep the true day sabbath at all. It's like driving without a license. Having a car and driving it is not bad, as long as you have the license. But when you drive without even having one then it is bad. We follow the truths so God said they can do it. That's all the excuse we need! ^^
You do not celebrate Christmas because you think it has pagan origins. You don't allow them in any of the wmscog congregations. Birthday celebrations can be shown to be of pagan origins too, yet they are allowed in some wmscog congregations because the people enjoy it?
Read it again, stop making me repeat myself.
FTOS, you keep repeating yourself, but you didn't answer the question about why you say the name "Christmas" is pagan. You said why you think the celebration of Christmas is pagan, but you didn't address the issue of the name "Christmas." Please do. I'm curious why you said that.
fromtheotherside wrote:
Pagans, and yes celebrating the birth of Christ is not bad, But to if I were to take haloween and then change the name to christoween, and dress up like christ and go out and say curse or bless, then yes it is not good.
Now that can spark some interesting thinking. Let's imagine we are in a culture that celebrates Halloween as one of the top events of the year. (Forget about any history of Halloween right now, just think of how it is celebrated today in general.) Here we are, Christians in the midst of this once a year celebration of death, gore, fear, and the occult.
When we speak to our neighbors about Jesus and salvation, would we completely ignore this cultural season and hope it just goes away?
Would we complain, criticize, and condemn, hoping that people would abandon their old culture, turn to God, and the holiday would disappear?
Or would we use the holiday as an object lesson to teach the truth about God, how we need not fear death, how He is greater than other power, how we should honor life, etc. and hope that eventually not just the Christians but the whole culture would think of God first in this season rather than death and witches?
I know what I would do. What would you do?
FTOS – While you are in the process of refuting our answers, let me ask you one simple question. You guys talk about the 7 feasts. Can you please name all 7 and also tell us the month and day for each of them?
Simon, Genny and others – this question is only for FTOS or any other current WMSCOG member. Please do not provide the answer here. I know you guys know the answer.
fromtheotherside wrote:
emil wrote:
fromtheotherside wrote:
Emil, it is not only my opinion but of many protestants also. It is not just the Church of God that says this. But many christians view it as pagan also.
Sad if they believe that. The numbers cannot make a belief a fact. I already told you the logic is faulty. Half the world seems to believe it is OK to kill the unborn child. What do you think?
There is a difference to belief and fact, the history of christmas is that is stems from pagan celebration. This is fact. So if most indians believe cows are Gods does it make it true?
Sorry I missed it the first time. No, you're absolutely right. Neither is it true if a few thousand Koreans believe one cow is god.
Now we have a few pending points waiting for your response.
1. How did you conclude that the word 'christmas' is pagan? Genny and I have been repeatedly asking but you divert the question.
2. Name the month and day for each of the 7 festivals observed by the wmscog. (I'm not sure if you really know all that much about the teaching of the wmscog)
Hey FTOS. You have some basis for your frivolous claim that the word 'christmas' is pagan? What about the 7 feast date/month? You know them or you need some time to check with your pastor?
emil wrote:
fromtheotherside wrote:
emil wrote:
fromtheotherside wrote:
Emil, it is not only my opinion but of many protestants also. It is not just the Church of God that says this. But many christians view it as pagan also.
Sad if they believe that. The numbers cannot make a belief a fact. I already told you the logic is faulty. Half the world seems to believe it is OK to kill the unborn child. What do you think?
There is a difference to belief and fact, the history of christmas is that is stems from pagan celebration. This is fact. So if most indians believe cows are Gods does it make it true?
Sorry I missed it the first time. No, you're absolutely right. Neither is it true if a few thousand Koreans believe one cow is god.
Now we have a few pending points waiting for your response.
1. How did you conclude that the word 'christmas' is pagan? Genny and I have been repeatedly asking but you divert the question.
2. Name the month and day for each of the 7 festivals observed by the wmscog. (I'm not sure if you really know all that much about the teaching of the wmscog)
1. Yea you're right, numbers does not make something true. Especially when it comes to God. Christmas is not in the bible therefore was created by man. So it is pagan. But you can argue then isn't that the same for trinity, no it is not., because the idea of trinity if from God. Niether the idea of Christmas or the word is from God.
2. If you're not sure don't ask me, I'm not here to answer your test questions.
1. Christ is in the bible but not Ahn. How about that? At Christmas we celebrate the birth of Jesus Christ who is the centre of the bible. You made a statement asserting that the word 'christmas' itself is pagan. Now does it mean you are withdrawing that assertion? Something not being in the bible does not make it pagan. Do you eat sandwiches? Is it mentioned in the bible? Is it pagan? Do you drive a car? It's not in the bible so it must be pagan?
2. I was never in the wmscog so I do not know whether you guys celebrate the feasts at the right time or not. Many people here think you are high up in the wmscog. I doubt that. There are many things you don't seem to know.
if you doubt it then why bother to ask, I'm not here prove myself to you Emil.
You can’t say a name is pagan on the assertion its a description. for a pagan event.
There is argument for the name jesus and title christ being pagan
Nemil wrote:
1. Christ is in the bible but not Ahn. How about that? At Christmas we celebrate the birth of Jesus Christ who is the centre of the bible. You made a statement asserting that the word 'christmas' itself is pagan. Now does it mean you are withdrawing that assertion? Something not being in the bible does not make it pagan. Do you eat sandwiches? Is it mentioned in the bible? Is it pagan? Do you drive a car? It's not in the bible so it must be pagan?
How you jump to this conclusion just baffles me… I clearly pointed out the fact it was not in the bible so it is pagan, as my reason, but now I' withdrawing my assertion??? hmmm this is confusing… anyhow your comparing the words of God and his truth to sandwhiches?? okay those two just totally don't have any correlation. First, do they eat sandwiches in order to worship a sandwich god? They have no corelation.
2. I was never in the wmscog so I do not know whether you guys celebrate the feasts at the right time or not. Many people here think you are high up in the wmscog. I doubt that. There are many things you don't seem to know.
fromtheotherside wrote:
if you doubt it then why bother to ask, I'm not here prove myself to you Emil.
OK. If you don't know or don't want to answer, it is up to you. You would need to have the courage of conviction to answer.
fromtheotherside wrote:
if you doubt it then why bother to ask, I'm not here prove myself to you Emil.
OK. If you don't know or don't want to answer, it is up to you. You would need to have the courage of conviction to answer.
fromtheotherside wrote:
Nemil wrote:
1. Christ is in the bible but not Ahn. How about that? At Christmas we celebrate the birth of Jesus Christ who is the centre of the bible. You made a statement asserting that the word 'christmas' itself is pagan. Now does it mean you are withdrawing that assertion? Something not being in the bible does not make it pagan. Do you eat sandwiches? Is it mentioned in the bible? Is it pagan? Do you drive a car? It's not in the bible so it must be pagan?
How you jump to this conclusion just baffles me… I clearly pointed out the fact it was not in the bible so it is pagan, as my reason, but now I' withdrawing my assertion??? hmmm this is confusing… anyhow your comparing the words of God and his truth to sandwhiches?? okay those two just totally don't have any correlation. First, do they eat sandwiches in order to worship a sandwich god? They have no corelation.
You said the word "christmas" is pagan. Then you say it is pagan because it is not in the bible. That is not a logical assumption. I show you why by giving you the example of things which are not in the bible like a sandwich or a car. Would you call them pagan? I guess not. I wouldn't. But they are not in the bible.
Now you come back with a nice point. "Do they eat sandwiches to worship a sandwich god?" Very good point and exactly what we have been saying all along. Just as eating sandwiches, not mentioned in the bible, does not imply worshiping a sandwich god, so also celebrating the birth of Jesus does not imply worshiping a pagan god. Mind you, the birth of Jesus is mentioned in the bible in case you haven't noticed.
On the other hand when someone worships ahn and zahng, that is totally non-biblical. Now you can defend yourself all you want by talking about hidden secrets and stuff. But that is no proof. Just baseless claims. Which god you worship is more important than when you worship.
fromtheotherside wrote:
Nemil wrote:
1. Christ is in the bible but not Ahn. How about that? At Christmas we celebrate the birth of Jesus Christ who is the centre of the bible. You made a statement asserting that the word 'christmas' itself is pagan. Now does it mean you are withdrawing that assertion? Something not being in the bible does not make it pagan. Do you eat sandwiches? Is it mentioned in the bible? Is it pagan? Do you drive a car? It's not in the bible so it must be pagan?
How you jump to this conclusion just baffles me… I clearly pointed out the fact it was not in the bible so it is pagan, as my reason, but now I' withdrawing my assertion??? hmmm this is confusing… anyhow your comparing the words of God and his truth to sandwhiches?? okay those two just totally don't have any correlation. First, do they eat sandwiches in order to worship a sandwich god? They have no corelation.
You said the word "christmas" is pagan. Then you say it is pagan because it is not in the bible. That is not a logical assumption. I show you why by giving you the example of things which are not in the bible like a sandwich or a car. Would you call them pagan? I guess not. I wouldn't. But they are not in the bible.
Now you come back with a nice point. "Do they eat sandwiches to worship a sandwich god?" Very good point and exactly what we have been saying all along. Just as eating sandwiches, not mentioned in the bible, does not imply worshiping a sandwich god, so also celebrating the birth of Jesus does not imply worshiping a pagan god. Mind you, the birth of Jesus is mentioned in the bible in case you haven't noticed.
On the other hand when someone worships ahn and zahng, that is totally non-biblical. Now you can defend yourself all you want by talking about hidden secrets and stuff. But that is no proof. Just baseless claims. Which god you worship is more important than when you worship.
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