[Sarah2013]

There has been a bit of a debate regarding the celebration of Christmas and it's origin. I have read many post regarding this celebration and it's origin. So now, here is my question, if Christmas is a pagan celebration or the like as some claim, then does that make the worship of a proven false god(s) ok? Here is why that particular debate holds no water compared to wmscog's doctrine and claim:

1. Christmas is a pagan holiday 

2. Sunday is sun-god worship

3. Zahng Gil Jah is god – mother god. who is the bride of God, which makes her a second god aside from God himself. There are no real scripture supporting this idea or belief either except the one given as support by Wmscog Gal. 4:26, of which, by the way, is incorrect. 

4. Ahnsanghong is the Holy Spirit/God. He left behind earthly children and his tombstone makes reference to that. He came from unbelieving parents originally. So God almighty, of all he could have chosen to be born into, he chose that which he is against. His books and the teaching  of Wmscog have so many inconsistencies and descrepancies – the teaching of Wmscog and the teaching of Ahng are not in accordance. 

5. Zahng Gil Jah, by the way does not move about the country. When was the last time she came to United States to spread the gospel of her son or her husband. Is she the bride of her husband or son. 

6. Jesus only made mention of a father and not a mother. 

Confusion! Confusion! Confusion! How can Christmas or sunday worship be bigger than the above?

I say that to say in very simple and plain English, If you want to keep at Christmas being a pagan holiday then for crying out loud. Keep your hands clean from sin. All of the above raises eyebrows but tell me, which do you think is really a problem, Christmas? Sunday worship? You got to be kidding me. If this is what Wmscog wants to hold onto, then you sincerely do not understand the God of the universe. To mimic him falsely is a serious sin. 

[Sarah2013]

[Sarah2013]

Once again….. Answer the questions. I gave you points from a pagan perspective so now defend the questions i raised to you, including your gods being married and so on. Remember, I started this thread so I'm not off topic. By the way, I don't belong to any church. 

[WMS brother]

Sarah2013

Excuse me, you want me to answer your tangent? After I just got done expressing how much I don't like it when people shift the goalposts and try to dodge the original point of this thread?

No.

I am going to remain on topic with Christmas, and it will please me to address your questions after we finish this on-topic discussion.

Further, you didn't post any questions, they were all statements. the only question marks in your thread, you answered all on your own with hurtful slander.

Thank you for debating Christmas with me.

I see clearly that you cannot defend the institution which began that man-made custom.

Further I clearly see that you cannot identify the beast as any other nation, which I contend started the custom of Christmas on pagan days.

[Simon]

You contradicted yourself

[jellybean]

WMSBROTHER

I know many people’s birthday on December 25th, does that means in fact that if I celebrate only persons birthday on that day that I am also celebrating all the other people’s birthdays in the whole world and Universe??? It does not means that because I only know one person’s birthday on that day. Therefore your concept on “If you celebrate Jesus’s birthday on December 25th, your also celebrating all these God’s birthdays does not make any sense because all those gods that you mentioned are not know by Christians neither have any participation or meaning for Christian Faith.

[Simon]

It makes. sense with the idea that’s WHY they chose. the date

[Sarah2013]

Sarah2013 wrote:

There has been a bit of a debate regarding the celebration of Christmas and it's origin. I have read many post regarding this celebration and it's origin. So now, here is my question, if Christmas is a pagan celebration or the like as some claim, then does that make the worship of a proven false god(s) ok? Here is why that particular debate holds no water compared to wmscog's doctrine and claim:

1. Christmas is a pagan holiday 

2. Sunday is sun-god worship

3. Zahng Gil Jah is god – mother god. who is the bride of God, which makes her a second god aside from God himself. There are no real scripture supporting this idea or belief either except the one given as support by Wmscog Gal. 4:26, of which, by the way, is incorrect. 

4. Ahnsanghong is the Holy Spirit/God. He left behind earthly children and his tombstone makes reference to that. He came from unbelieving parents originally. So God almighty, of all he could have chosen to be born into, he chose that which he is against. His books and the teaching  of Wmscog have so many inconsistencies and descrepancies – the teaching of Wmscog and the teaching of Ahng are not in accordance. 

5. Zahng Gil Jah, by the way does not move about the country. When was the last time she came to United States to spread the gospel of her son or her husband. Is she the bride of her husband or son. 

6. Jesus only made mention of a father and not a mother. 

Confusion! Confusion! Confusion! How can Christmas or sunday worship be bigger than the above?

I say that to say in very simple and plain English, If you want to keep at Christmas being a pagan holiday then for crying out loud. Keep your hands clean from sin. All of the above raises eyebrows but tell me, which do you think is really a problem, Christmas? Sunday worship? You got to be kidding me. If this is what Wmscog wants to hold onto, then you sincerely do not understand the God of the universe. To mimic him falsely is a serious sin. 

Wms brother: How is it pagan day when the focus is on the birth of Christ and not December 25th. December 25th is just the day chosen to celebrate it. His birth is joyous! A day set for when Jesus was born, whether it falls on a false god's day or a bad man's day. Those who truly celebrate it in its entire real sense do so with joy. I am by far not off topic. Are you kidding me???? I keep that real. You belong to an organization telling you, or perhaps you telling your members that a woman named Zhang and a man named Ahang from Korea with kids and spouses are God(s)??? And you think I'm the one slandering? You want to sit here and debate Christmas alone because you have no real defense for the other mentioned statements I made. Bring it on, man. Let's establish one thing, you are talking to someone who does not go with the traditions of man, yet, believes 100 percent in the Bible. How can one who worships Idol say to people who celebrate the birthday of Jesus on December 25th that what they are doing are of pagan origin. If the date were celebrated on January 1st or so, your organization will find a name for it. Please read the thread. It is not only about Christmas but of all that I stated. So lets keep at it all, after all, it's a debate. 

I can slander all day long the gods cause you slander my God – Jesus the Christ. There is no other god, gods, but He alone is the one and only true living and existing God. All other gods have proven they are false and cannot stand up to scrutiny. 

[emil]

WMS brother wrote:

Disagreeing with us does not vindicate sunday worship or Christmas worship or the blatantly man-decreed "new day" of easter. Which in and of itself, is also a pagan holy day.

I think you ought to know a couple of things. 1. Easter is the English name. The name used by the Catholic Church is Pasche. It is translated as Easter in England and Germany. And therefore it is the name used in English speaking countries.

WMS brother wrote:

Especially that whole painting eggs part and worshipping a bunny. That was exactly the ritual used to promote fetility from the Goddess.

If you think that is a religious ritual, you are sadly mistaken. The egg is a symbol of new life which is what Jesus' death and resurrection was all about. So it has become part of social tradition. It has no religious significance for catholics. Worshipping bunnies? You've been hearing fairy tales. Find the truth. Don't just accept the lies you are fed.

Disagreeing with us should not be an excuse to ignore all other facts in Christ.

I disagree with which god you worship. The one you call christ is not. I cannot agree with any of your teaching until you can prove you are worshipping the right god.

This forum tries to say that we are wrong about everything ever, and never have any truthful or insightful teachings. No matter how much we present evidence to our logic.

It plainly shows this forum's Bias, it plainly shows an unwillingness to learn.

There was a thread named "Evidence for the Antichrist…." where FTOS was the only one who dared to appear. Go and check which side has the logical argument. Whenever FTOS finds himself at the wrong end of logical debate, he stops to personal attacks.

It plainly shows that no matter how faithfully we argue our own cause, you do not want our freedom of religion to be repected.

You do not want us to be happy abstaining form Christmas, you want to hold the love of our families hostage in arguments about how we are wrong. Do you think we don't already know this? That we don't regret having to choose between the will of God and Pagan holy days?

Yet it is written:

Luke 14:26

“If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters—yes, even their own life—such a person cannot be my disciple."

Because it becomes obvious that there do exist some situations where maybe you have to pick between God and physical family.

Wrong again. Nobody here will blame you for not celebrating Christmas. On the contrary this thread is all about you letting us celebrate the birth of our Lord Jesus Christ who is the only Christ. "Anyone who does not confess that He is the only Christ is the antichrist," says the bible.

[Sarah2013]

WMS brother wrote:

Dec. 25 – Birthday of Mithra the Sun God

Dec. 25 – Birthday of Tammuz the Sun God

Dec. 25 – Birthday of Nimrod the "Sun God" reincarnated into a King

Dec. 25 – Festival of Baal the Sun God via cult Sol Invictus

Dec. 25 – Festival of Yule for the Norse Gods via decorating the Yule-Tree

Dec. 25 – Ritual of Mistletoe hung for Gods Frigga and Baldur

Dec. 25 – Ritual of Wreaths hung for long life in Jol (now "Yule")

Dec. 25 – Holiday feast of Saturnalia (formerly dec. 14-24th)

Dec. 25 – Holiday presents and toys of Sigillaria (formerly dec. 30-31)

Dec. 25 – Holiday Brumalia's final day

Dec. 25 – Not the Birthday of Jesus

Dec. 25 – Not a Holy Day of God

Dec. 25 – Not repeated by the apostles

Dec. 25 – Not repeated by any first generation disciples.

Dec. 25 – Not commanded by Jesus.

Dec. 25 – Not repeated after the Wise Men arrived late in the year to an already born Jesus and gave their gifts. That was it, the whole thing was a one time event to fulfill prophecies.

<strong style=”line-height: 1.2em;”>Read Luke Chapter 2 to see what happened when Jesus was born. 

The first recorded date of Christmas being celebrated on December 25th was in 336AD, during the time of the Roman Emperor Constantine (he was the first Christian Roman Emperor). A few years later, Pope Julius I officially declared that the birth of Jesus would be celebrated on the 25th December.

This is a public well documented historical record

Jesus was a Jew, so this could be another reason that helped the early Church choose December the 25th for the date of Christmas!

The name 'Christmas' comes from the Mass of Christ (or Jesus). A Mass service (which is sometimes called Communion or Eucharist – granted your church discredits the catholic church) is where Christians remember that Jesus died for us and then came back to life. The 'Christ-Mass' service was the only one that was allowed to take place after sunset (and before sunrise the next day), so people had it at Midnight! So we get the name Christ-Mass, shortened to Christmas.

Augustine was the person who really started Christmas in the UK by introducing Christianity in the 6th century. He came from countries that used the Roman Calendar, so western countries celebrate Christmas on the25th December. Then people from Britain and Western Europe took Christmas on the25th December all over the world!

Thus the 25th of December is not the exact date Jesus was born, but rather the day we choose to celebrate his birth. The exact day he was born is not important. The fact we celebrate his birth is.

However, How did December 25 become Christmas? We cannot be entirely sure. Elements of the <em style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; outline: 0px; font-size: 13px; vertical-align: baseline; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); font-family: Georgia, serif; line-height: 19.5px;">festival that developed from the fourth century until modern times may well derive from pagan traditions. Yet the actual date might really derive more from Judaism—from Jesus’ death at Passover, and from the rabbinic notion that great things might be expected, again and again, at the same time of the year—than from paganism. Then again, in this notion of cycles and the return of God’s redemption, we may perhaps also be touching upon something that the pagan Romans who celebrated <em style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; outline: 0px; font-size: 13px; vertical-align: baseline; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); font-family: Georgia, serif; line-height: 19.5px;">Sol Invictus, and many other peoples since, would have understood and claimed for their own, too.

 All the days of the weeks have been named after one god or ancient name of old, yet we (the world) call these days by those names as we come into the world.  When was the last time you found yourself saying "on first day or second day or fourth  day, or fifth day and so on… I will be at such and such, doing such and such." Nobody talks lthat way. Yet, those who call it by the common names, if beleivers, still believe Jesus is God, and not Ahang is God or the like. There are probably so many other events that take place on December 25th that you didn't mention and even probably on some of the days your church holds its feast. If this December 25th is so much your bone of contention then why when Ahang's birthday fell on the 25th of December did they acknowledge it? This is the mind minipulation tactic I have noticed is used in defending your belief system.  You lay emphasis on things which can be easily rectified if that be the case, rather than on the real truths – the gods of your church. There are some Christians who do not celebrate Christmas becasue they do not believe December 25th is his birhday, yet, are nowhere close to accepting the teachings of Wmscog. Why? Because it has created a new God, something of blasphemous uniqueness.

Please pray to God for understasnding and knowledge so he can reveal to you who you worship as God. At that revelation,  you can then delve into orthodoxy. As it stands, all the December 25th you have quoted does not prove that celebrating the birh of Jesus is wrong or is  an act of paganism. The same way Ahang and Zhang coming from the east does not prove they are God.  

[Sarah2013]

Read Luke Chapter 2 to see what happened at the birth of Jesus. Maybe that will help you understand what those who celebrate Christmas do on that day. I'm not referring to people who exchange gifts and go shopping, santa clause/father christmas, and so on. Not that. I often try to avoid long entries but this one called for it. 

[emil]

Here is a reference link to an article about the date of Christmas and the name Easter.

http://home.earthlink.net/~mysticalrose/pagan8.html

[Sarah2013]

Thanks for showing me that, Emil. Interesting article. I read it while offline and logged in to comment.

[Simon]

Gotta say the article. is as revisionist as wms and two Babylons just in tge opposite direction

and arguing calling it pascha is no imrovement on Easter seeing as its days after pascha (when. the dates even align properly )

[emil]

Simon, your opinion of revisionist seems to be based on what you believe rather than which came first. There is proof to show that the Christmas date was accepted in the time of Irenaeus in the second century. This was far earlier than the introduction od Sol invictus.

We now follow the Gregorian calendar for its astronomical accuracy. The date of pascha is set to algn more accurately with the estimated date of the resurrection of Jesus. So the date is reasonably accurate on the basis of the astronomical positions.

[Simon]

Was talking the Easter being revisionist

she is still worshipped today

and we can’t use a man made calender. and put gods feast.s in it. Christmas being man made is vaguely different but resurrection day was an apointed time from before the church we can’t just make it up

[Simon]

And he didn’t resurrect on pascha but the first day of the omer

[emil]

Simon wrote:

Was talking the Easter being revisionist

she is still worshipped today

and we can't use a man made calender. and put gods feast.s in it. Christmas being man made is vaguely different but resurrection day was an apointed time from before the church we can't just make it up

Where? In Germany? It appears that the English borrowed the name from the Germans. Whether she is worshiped today or not is moot. It has no bearing on whether the name was taken because of her. In any case, since the official language of the catholic church is Latin and probably far less than 50% of the world's catholics speak English, it would be incorrect to ignore the name of the feast of the resurrection as known offcially and to the majority of believers of the catholic church.

God set the stars and planets to fix times. Mans ways of measuring time were inaccurate. The Gregorian Calendar sets time with greater accuracy with regard to the positions of the heavenly bodies than any other calendar before that. The date for the crucifixion is then computed with reference to the spring equinox and the moon phase to correspond as closely to the date Jesus was crucified.

The calendar is made with the knowledge and ability that is given by God. As human knowledge of the universe created by God increases, so does the accuracy of the calendar.

[Simon]

The articles argument is she was never believed in so the name. COULDN’T. come from her

and as i pointed out the latin name is wrong because its the wrong appointed time

Lastly the sacred calendar isn’t of man and isn’t solar but lunar this makes any accuracy moot in fact the moon isn’t at all accounted in the Roman calender

[Simon]

And if the name doesn’t come from her why so many Easter traditions directly from the German pagans

[emil]

Simon wrote:

And if the name doesn't come from her why so many Easter traditions directly from the German pagans

Simon, I believe you are quite unaware about how the catholic church celebrates Easter. Let me assure you that there are no Easter eggs and bunnies. Those may be social customs but have no connection with the liturgical celebration.

[Simon]

Yet with what church did these social customs appear