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“From this same Catholic Church you have accepted your Sunday, and that Sunday, as the Lord’s day, she has handed down as a tradition; and the entire Protestant world has accepted it as tradition, for you have not an iota of Scripture to establish it. Therefore that which you have accepted as your rule of faith, inadequate as it of course is, as well as your Sunday, you have accepted on the authority of the Roman Catholic Church” (D.B. Ray;">The Papal Controversy, p. 179, 1892).
Wow, that was a little forward. This site is getting a little nasty.. But in response to Joshua, I totally understand what you said in the 2nd response. You're right, we have to think like they were thinking in that time. I'm going to research the bible and see if there is any verse that says or suggests that people didn't casually break bread; that breaking bread meant a feast or sabbath was being kept. I will also see if there is any scripture other than the Res. to back up your first response as well.
Warning – This post is likely to raise hackles.
1. I am not proposing that Sunday should be the sabbath at all. My point is that God wants us to have one day in the week in which to rest our bodies. The same day is to be dedicated to God. This has to be viewed in the context of history where many people were exploited as slaves and had no day of rest.
2. One day of God's creation does not translate to one day of earth time. Therefore one cannot take the Saturday sabbath literally. The important point is to set aside one day in the week for the Lord. This could be Saturday, Sunday or even Friday as the people in the Middle East follow. If one wants to follow the sabbath strictly on Saturday because of the old testament, then one has to follow the entire rule set too.
2. Tell me where Jesus commanded the Saturday sabbath. Look at the times when Jesus told people which commandments they were to follow. I am not aware the sabbath was mentioned even once in that context. Look at Mt19:18-19, Mt 22:37-39, Mk 12:29-33, Lk 10:26-28.
3. Regarding Jesus and the apostles keeping the sabbath. They were Jews and were required to keep the sabbath because they were under old covenant law until the Resurrection. It has been mentioned in this forum that shifting to Sunday worship was something the apostles condemned as lawless. If that is the case, why was this not explicitly specified to the faithful (many of whom were not Jews) in the council of Jerusalem in 50 AD? It was a great opportunity for the apostles to impose Saturday worship on all Christians but they didn't.
4. Paul, writing in Gal 2:11-21 and continuing in Gal 3, strongly opposes the influence of the Jewish lobby in trying to impose works of the law in the early church. Circumcision and sabbath were significant impositions. In Gal 3:21 he asserts that the law cannot bring righteousness. I understand that this means observing sabbath on Saturday will not get you to heaven unlike what is being bandied about here.
I believe Heb 4 actually removes the idea of fixing a specific day of the week as a one-size-fits-all day for worship. Sunday is a good choice because it is the day of the Lord's resurrection. Perhaps some may not give the resurrection day significance because their own god did not rise from the dead.
However, any other day of the week should be good enough to rest and worship God like for instance Friday in the Persian gulf area. The point is that God made the sabbath for man so that man could have rest and use the day to dedicate to God. Every day is God's day.
Sorry. I apologize for my allusion to the absence of Resurrection of AhnSahngHong.
My point is that we must keep the essence of the sabbath which is treating one in 7 days as a day of rest dedicated to God. There was no Saturday or Sunday or anything at the time of creation. The days mentioned in the creation story are not 24 hour Earth days. Every day is made by God and of equal importance.
I am told by a wmscog member that we must keep Jesus' commands if we love him. I say he never said to keep the sabbath on Saturday. In fact he never said to keep the sabbath at all as far as I know. You turn it around and say he did not say not to keep it.
The commandment to love God is the first commandment. The Sabbath command has its own position among the ten. I agree that loving God means following his commandments. But then, as I said, the essence of the sabbath is one day in 7 of rest and dedicated to God. Guys with the developed west mindset look at Saturday/Sunday as the only options. In many countries, neither is feasible. Are Christians in those countries going to hell? Our God is a loving God.
fromtheotherside wrote:
Sorry to put it this way Emil but that is an excuse, not to keep Gods' day because of restrictions from people or countries is an excuse not a reason. At the time of the early church they were put to death for keeping it, did it stop them? no they went in to hiding to keep their faith in God.
1. In my country, I know wmscog members who cannot keep Saturday sabbath because it is a working day for them. Tell them what they should do since you say it is only an excuse.
2. AFAIK they were put to death because they tried to keep it on Sunday.
who would put people to death for keeping a day that was already a de facto national holiday?
Sabbath is mentioned enough in the New Testament one would expect that if it no longer applied that would be much more explicit.
Furthermore if Jesus changed the set times as people claim he would have prophecies against him why would we believe in a Messiah Daniel called evil? (Daniel 7:25)
Jay wrote:
Emil,
So then, what is the point of the weekly Sabbath if it is not to enter into His rest? Rev 14: 6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people, 7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.
Incidentally, the way to avoid the mark of the beast and enter into the promise rest is found in Rev 14:12. Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. This the real point of Heb 3 and 4. So in a sense, it actually does promote the 7th day Sabbath.
So that's it? The weekly Sabbath is the key to heaven?
You have an interesting way to use Rev 14 to interpret Heb 4. I can't see any connection in Rev 14:6 that you have quoted. As for Rev 14:12, you are probably refering to the commandments of God. Rather tenuous connection with what Heb 4 is saying. But then again, I have mentioned already how I understand the sabbath commandment.
Emil, I don't see any biblical reference saying Saturday is the Sabbath. People who use the Creation as basis for claiming Saturday is the Sabbath have a weak arguement. As far as history shows, when the days of the week were named, the 7th day was given the name Sabbath in many different languages. Which seems fair being that God says the Sabbath is the 7th day of the week. Plus there's a huge difference between the Sabbath and a Sabbath. "The" describes a specific thing while "a" doesn't. So, to say God wants us to rest on a day is not all the way true. God wants us to rest the day He named the Sabbath, not a day we decide is the Sabbath.
Also, there is no one way to enter heaven. Keeping the Sabbath does not garauntee your salvation but it should keep you moving forward to getting salvation. Running alone doesn't keep you healthy. Healthy dieting alone doesn't keep you healthy either. With healthy choices collectively (physically and spiritually) you can almost certainly reach your goal.
renita.payno wrote:
Also, there is no one way to enter heaven. Keeping the Sabbath does not garauntee your salvation but it should keep you moving forward to getting salvation. Running alone doesn't keep you healthy. Healthy dieting alone doesn't keep you healthy either. With healthy choices collectively (physically and spiritually) you can almost certainly reach your goal.
I understand your point, but there is only one way to enter heaven.) Jesuus says I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one gets to Heaven except by me.;) It is precisely for this reason that he is the only way that we ought to keep His commandments.
Galatians 2:18 For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor
Whatever.. nit picking just like the WMSCOG. You know good and well what I meant by what I said. And if you don't know, I was responding to the comment about the Sabbath being the key to heaven. Don't do that.. If I were to express the obvious everytime I sent a message they would be long and repetitive.
renita.payno wrote:
Whatever.. nit picking just like the WMSCOG. You know good and well what I meant by what I said. And if you don't know, I was responding to the comment about the Sabbath being the key to heaven. Don't do that.. If I were to express the obvious everytime I sent a message they would be long and repetitive.
Sorry, but in a forum dedicated to exposing strange doctrine, the obvious is sometimes not so obvious. In other words I know you may know, but to others looking on it may not be so obvious. Don't take it personally Renita!! 🙂
God bless,
–Jay
fromtheotherside wrote:
So this is coming to a stand still, either you're worshiping the sun on sunday or you're worshiping God on Sabbath, or you're worshiping God on any day, there has to be only one. God's words are black and white, there is no middle. And Jesus clearly said not everyone who says to me Lord lord will enter heaven but only he who does the will of my Father.
I look forward to the day when you try this. Right now you are violating the first commandment just for starters. Pathetic.
renita.payno wrote:
Also, there is no one way to enter heaven. Keeping the Sabbath does not garauntee your salvation but it should keep you moving forward to getting salvation. Running alone doesn't keep you healthy. Healthy dieting alone doesn't keep you healthy either. With healthy choices collectively (physically and spiritually) you can almost certainly reach your goal.
I was just quoting Jay
Jay wrote:
So then, what is the point of the weekly Sabbath if it is not to enter into His rest?
My point is that we are getting too sticky about the letter of the law while losing the spirit of it. I say this because of what Jesus said and did during his ministry.
There are people who think trying to follow the rules 100% isn't necessary while others think it is. Though we [generally] say the rules were put in place to follow, the Scripture says the rules were meant to be broken. I know God has a different mind than we [generally] do but good is good right? Does good change when it comes to God and us? I don't think so. God sees it good to love and we see it good to love. Even before we intelligently knew God we loved to love.
The laws on earth are for order. With good laws, if followed, we have good order. Many will say that God's laws are good simply because God made them and God is completely good. So, if His laws are followed, or at least attempted to be followed, then we would have good order and consistency amongst Chrstians.
I think there is such a thing as paying too much attention to the law that we [generally] lose track of why we're doing it. But at the same time, only paying attention to why and not looking into what the law really says isn't good either. Why would God put any effort into teaching us how and why if the how or why didn't matter?
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