- Topic
This addresses lies and New Jerusalem:
In Matthew 5:33-37 Jesus taught:
Again, you have heard that it was said to the people long ago, "Do not break your oath, but keep the oaths you have made to the Lord." But I tell you, Do not swear at all: either by heaven, for it is God's throne; or by the earth, for it is His footstool; or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the Great King. And do not swear by your head, for you cannot make make even one hair white or black. Simply let your "Yes" be "Yes," and your "No" be "No"; anything beyond this comes from the evil one.
If you have been encouraged by your group to lie either outright or by ommission know now that this comes from the evil one. Have you been encouraged to not tell people what group you really represent? Have you been told that there are righteous of harmless lies? You are following the one you think you are not. Satan is leading you and lies are the proof of this truth.
Simply let your "Yes" be "Yes," and your "No" be "No"; anything beyond this comes from the evil one.
I can tell a lie and not know it's a lie, Shimon. Even though I was raised to believe that not telling the entire truth is lying, I don't think it is. I think with-holding information and lying are to different things that can lead someone to believe one way or the other. Just because you can take 2 routes to go to the same place doesn't make those routes the same.
Age of accountability:
I read an article about toddlers lying. I didn't understand why my baby would lie to me about something as stupid as the color of her shirt, so I looked it up. The article said that though toddlers are aware that what they are saying is not true, they still tell lies not to be lying but to be creative. Pretending. Toying with their imagination. A toddler who doesn't lie about ridiculous things lacks the imagination of one that does lie about ridiculous things. After reading this, I started letting Anaya tell these stupid lies because I don't want to take her imagination away from her. But at the end of the day, it's still lying which, according to Scripture, is what God hates and can very well send you to hell. Now, will God allow toddlers or people with the mind of toddlers slide? Yo no se..
if you’re not aware it isn’t a lie
Lie of commission vs lie of omission
Then you can't call it a lie. It needs a different name..
Lie of ommision is man made. Aside from the bible.. many people say that leaving out information is a lie. According to the Scripture, leaving out information is NOT a lie. Aside from the bible.. many people say if you don't know you're "lying" then it's not a lie. The Scripture says we commit sin knowingly and UNKNOWINGLY meaning even if you don't know you're lying, you're still lying/sinning.
Someone made a good point yesterday.. Jesus said not to tell people that He was the Christ. According to the idea that with-holding info is lying, Jesus lied and is not God in the flesh. All you christians are worshipping a false God. Keeping secrets is lying apparently.
Lie of omission isn’t any more man made than lie of commission
I didn't say anything about lie of commission because I don't know what that is. You can argue about that by your damn self.
Just because you can sin unknowingly doesn't mean all sin is possible unknowingly.
Also witholding information and withholding information to deceive are different
Here's an example of a lie of omission. When a company wants to issue an IPO and go public, it must publish all its business and financial details relevant to valuing the company. If the company witholds information deliberately just to keep the perceived value high, that is certainly a sin of omission. You are committing a fraud on the new sharholders.
Liberty, I liked your thoughtful response about the topic.
Liberty wrote:
Also, God is not going to intervene and allow a supernatural event to take place everytime someone refrains from lying. How many have genuinely good-hearted God-loving people have tried to to the same thing but continue to get less than favorable results? I'd rather be smart about the situation. I think to expect God to come through with a supernatural event everytime you refrain from telling a lie in a life or death situation is just plain dumb. Sorry to be blunt.
I just think that we should remember that it's possible for God to do such a thing. We should not expect it, but should not rule it out either.
I just think for anyone to 100% never tell a lie, is impossible.
I agree with that. Whether intentionally or not, everyone ends up lying sometime, in one way or another. I still don't think that makes lying ok in God's eyes, still a sin, but it shows us how much we must rely on God's grace and forgiveness because we can't live a perfect life, no matter how hard we try.
Only in Pikuach nefesh could lying be sinfree imo. (I cannot imagine any way you could be required to lie to not blaspheme God if somehow there were a way o.o but that sounds utterly ludicrous)
renita.payno wrote:
Age of accountability:
I read an article about toddlers lying. I didn't understand why my baby would lie to me about something as stupid as the color of her shirt, so I looked it up. The article said that though toddlers are aware that what they are saying is not true, they still tell lies not to be lying but to be creative. Pretending. Toying with their imagination. A toddler who doesn't lie about ridiculous things lacks the imagination of one that does lie about ridiculous things. After reading this, I started letting Anaya tell these stupid lies because I don't want to take her imagination away from her. But at the end of the day, it's still lying which, according to Scripture, is what God hates and can very well send you to hell. Now, will God allow toddlers or people with the mind of toddlers slide? Yo no se..
This is a good point Renita. I've always believed that lying isn't always bad. I think it depends on the intent. I use to make up creative stories all the time as a child. Sometimes, when asked about my day, I would put a "creative" spin on my day to make it seem more interesting. I might say that they served us 100 apples for dessert, when it was probably only 10. I didn't know the exact number, so exaggerated. Or I might say the cat ran through the room at lightning speed. It probably really only ran at a moderate pace. But I didn't even know what exaggeration was at that age. I just wanted to be silly. I might say a monkey jumped on a chair when there really wasn't one. My mom always knew when I was being silly though and making my stories more "colorful." My family just thought it was cute. And no, I didn't grow up to be a pathological liar ๐
I'd like to think I have quite an acute conscience, actually.
At the end of the day, it's harmless. And again, the bible doesn't have a solution/example for every single problem, issue or concern that may come up in life.I think its up to us to have our own judgment/discernment about what is good and bad. I think its quite easy actually. Majority of people know the type of lies that wouldn't be okay by any means. Not that it keeps some from not doing it, but they know.
With-holding information is not a lie. Saying you told the whole truth whilst with-holding information is a lie. Saying you're partially telling the truth whilst with-holding information is not a lie. Signing a paper that says, "I have truthfully answered all the above questions to the best of my knowledge" when you with-held information is a lie because you said you told the whole truth when in fact you didn't.
Even if with-holding information alone is a lie. Jesus gave an example that sometimes it's ok to lie. Or we can just say Jesus was not God in flesh. Either one fits..
genny wrote:
Liberty, I liked your thoughtful response about the topic.
Liberty wrote:
Also, God is not going to intervene and allow a supernatural event to take place everytime someone refrains from lying. How many have genuinely good-hearted God-loving people have tried to to the same thing but continue to get less than favorable results? I'd rather be smart about the situation. I think to expect God to come through with a supernatural event everytime you refrain from telling a lie in a life or death situation is just plain dumb. Sorry to be blunt.
I just think that we should remember that it's possible for God to do such a thing. We should not expect it, but should not rule it out either.
I just think for anyone to 100% never tell a lie, is impossible.
I agree with that. Whether intentionally or not, everyone ends up lying sometime, in one way or another. I still don't think that makes lying ok in God's eyes, still a sin, but it shows us how much we must rely on God's grace and forgiveness because we can't live a perfect life, no matter how hard we try.
Thank you for saying that Genny. I always enjoy your responses in general, I find them always to be thought-ful. Even if I may disagree slightly, I enjoy reading them. And I can learn a lot from you, I'm sure.
It is true that we can't live a perfect life no matter how hard we try. We just aren't perfect creatures. We do bad things intentionally and unintentionally at times. I think we were made that way.
When I was at the wmscog, I was trying so hard to "crucify" myself and kill myself. I knew if I didn't give up my "sinful nature," I couldn't go to Heaven. I wanted to go to Heaven so badly and I did so many things to try to make myself perfect. Lots of tears, fasting, prayers, dedication of my time. But it didn't work, and I have absolutely nothing to show for it.
That's why now, I don't want to waste any more precious hours of my life trying to be perfect and sinless. I don't want to strive for the impossible. I think it's a waste of time. We will never be perfect so why try? Just like, we will never be able to fly, so why try? Think if we put all our minds and energy into things that we actually could do to make a difference in this world.
Again when I say that, I am not trying to give myself a pass by any means. I'm not trying to justify sinning ( I know it seems that way though). I'm not saying that because something is too hard, that you should just give up and not try to strive for it. Lots of things in this world are hard, and its never easy to always make the right choice. We should always strive to do the right thing, no matter how hard it is.
It's just that no matter how good, nice, kind, compassionate, friendly, giving, loving, etc, etc, etc. that I try to be, I'm never going to be completely sinless. It's just not going to happen. But instead of continually trying to beat myself up about it, I want to just embrace the person I am and be proud of myself. That was something that I was not allowed to do while I was at the wmscog, but it is definitely my motto now.
I am actually quite strict on myself and others. Many think I'm judgmental (and I probably am). I still hold very high standards for myself and others. That is not going to change. But I rather strive to be practical than strive for the impossible. I strongly feel that way after my experience at the wmscog.
If in our journey to be the best person that we can be, we slip up and lie somtimes or sin in some way, yet our intention was 100% in the right place, then it's certainly not the end of the world. It's just hard for me to imagine the God above to really be disapproving of that. If so, then it doesn't really sit right with me. How can God give us a goal that he knows is impossible? That is my problem with the Bible and religion, I guess. Why not give us something that we can truly do and strive for?
Because my entire adult life consists of me being in the Navy so far, I have a lot of examples from the Navy. An MAA [Master at Arms; like the Navy police] wrote me up saying that I lied about going to an appointment. This was the day I went to a service for one of the Feast days that was being held at a park. I explained to her how I didn't lie because an appointment is a meeting at a specific time and specific place according to the Navy military dictionary. And, IAW that definition, church service is technically an appointment. So, then she had to change my charge from lying to something along the lines of misleading. Basically saying that I purposely used the word appointment because most people would assume I meant a doctor's/dental appointment and not a church service. Because I didn't lie when I said appointment, she couldn't charge me with falsifying an official statement. I had to get a different charge.. That's 1 real life example I can think of relating to lying vs not telling the whole truth.
All charges were dropped in the end BTW. =)
I just think that each of us knows in our hearts when our lies – and we do tell a lot – are sinful (for want of a better description) or not. When we 'should' have been honest or more open. We may try and convince others, or even ourselves that it's in a good cause to lie – a righteous lie?- but we know. Any action or words can be justified as being acceptable if we convince ourselves that the means justify the ends. Isn't that what wmscog do all the time? But in our quiet alone moments, we know.
Liberty, you said that so well. ๐
It reminds me of a new song I heard twice on the radio today. Amy Grant's "Don't try so hard" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OfGvXfe9LK8
Isn't there a verse (more than one) that says God knows how weak we are. He knows we are going to fail, that we are not going to be 100% perfect 100% of the time, yet He still loves us and offers us forgiveness and salvation.
And if I told you I ate 100 cookies for dessert, and you and I both knew I was lying (exaggerating), I would consider that a mutual game rather than a deception. ๐
justasitis wrote:
I just think that each of us knows in our hearts when our lies – and we do tell a lot – are sinful (for want of a better description) or not. When we 'should' have been honest or more open. We may try and convince others, or even ourselves that it's in a good cause to lie – a righteous lie?- but we know. Any action or words can be justified as being acceptable if we convince ourselves that the means justify the ends. Isn't that what wmscog do all the time? But in our quiet alone moments, we know.
Yes, that's it exactly.
renita.payno wrote:
Someone made a good point yesterday.. Jesus said not to tell people that He was the Christ. According to the idea that with-holding info is lying, Jesus lied and is not God in the flesh. All you christians are worshipping a false God. Keeping secrets is lying apparently.
I've been thinking about this one. For one thing, we know that God doesn't lie. If Jesus lied, then He was not God. Since I believe that He was God, I need to know if there is a way for this not to be a lie. So I've been thinking of a real life situation to compare this to.
Matt. 16:20 "Then he ordered his disciples not to tell anyone that he was the Messiah."
Is withholding info always lying, or is it sometimes discerning how much information is needed at a particular time? If the info is needed and not given, then I would say that's deceptive. If the info is not needed and not given, then that is not necessarily deceptive or lying.
I know someone who is often accused of giving TMI to too many people. Do 100 people need to be sent an email about who of the extended family and friends is getting divorced, who is having bowel trouble, who is going into the hospital…? If she knows what's happening in all these families, and doesn't spread the news to everyone in her address book, is that lying?
If I'm sitting around with friends who are comisserating about their financial woes, is it lying for me not to pitch in, "Well, we are quite stable. We have no car debt, credit cards are paid in full each month, and our mortgage is nearly paid off." If I'm asked directly, is it lying for me to simply say, "Well, we follow a careful budget, so we are doing fine for now, but I certainly understand the difficulty of these times."
Is it lying if I don't walk through the store announcing to everyone I pass my name, address, family members' names, social security numbers, etc. Am I withholding information and therefore lying?
I see this statement of Jesus as instructing His disciples not to run around shouting to everyone, "This is the Messiah!" But rather to let Jesus do the revealing in His way and His time. The Pharisee's knew Jesus was claiming to be God by His own words and actions. When Jesus was directly asked if He was the Messiah, He answered. And if the disciples were directly asked if He was the Messiah, then I'm sure there would be a discerning, truthful way they could answer, though I don't recall any record of them being asked.
What do you think the wmscog response would be to this?
Genny I love what you said and I agree with you 110% ๐ two thumbs up!
genny wrote:
renita.payno wrote:
Someone made a good point yesterday.. Jesus said not to tell people that He was the Christ. According to the idea that with-holding info is lying, Jesus lied and is not God in the flesh. All you christians are worshipping a false God. Keeping secrets is lying apparently.
I've been thinking about this one. For one thing, we know that God doesn't lie. If Jesus lied, then He was not God. Since I believe that He was God, I need to know if there is a way for this not to be a lie. So I've been thinking of a real life situation to compare this to.
Matt. 16:20 "Then he ordered his disciples not to tell anyone that he was the Messiah."
Is withholding info always lying, or is it sometimes discerning how much information is needed at a particular time? If the info is needed and not given, then I would say that's deceptive. If the info is not needed and not given, then that is not necessarily deceptive or lying.
I know someone who is often accused of giving TMI to too many people. Do 100 people need to be sent an email about who of the extended family and friends is getting divorced, who is having bowel trouble, who is going into the hospital…? If she knows what's happening in all these families, and doesn't spread the news to everyone in her address book, is that lying?
If I'm sitting around with friends who are comisserating about their financial woes, is it lying for me not to pitch in, "Well, we are quite stable. We have no car debt, credit cards are paid in full each month, and our mortgage is nearly paid off." If I'm asked directly, is it lying for me to simply say, "Well, we follow a careful budget, so we are doing fine for now, but I certainly understand the difficulty of these times."
Is it lying if I don't walk through the store announcing to everyone I pass my name, address, family members' names, social security numbers, etc. Am I withholding information and therefore lying?
I see this statement of Jesus as instructing His disciples not to run around shouting to everyone, "This is the Messiah!" But rather to let Jesus do the revealing in His way and His time. The Pharisee's knew Jesus was claiming to be God by His own words and actions. When Jesus was directly asked if He was the Messiah, He answered. And if the disciples were directly asked if He was the Messiah, then I'm sure there would be a discerning, truthful way they could answer, though I don't recall any record of them being asked.
What do you think the wmscog response would be to this?
So you do agree with us and you finally came to understand that, there is a time and place to reveal certain things, people need milk not solid food in the begining. If people ask we give them an answer but as you said we would rather let God do the revealing in His way and His time! So finaly you have come to understand. Good Job Genny!
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