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This addresses lies and New Jerusalem:
In Matthew 5:33-37 Jesus taught:
Again, you have heard that it was said to the people long ago, "Do not break your oath, but keep the oaths you have made to the Lord." But I tell you, Do not swear at all: either by heaven, for it is God's throne; or by the earth, for it is His footstool; or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the Great King. And do not swear by your head, for you cannot make make even one hair white or black. Simply let your "Yes" be "Yes," and your "No" be "No"; anything beyond this comes from the evil one.
If you have been encouraged by your group to lie either outright or by ommission know now that this comes from the evil one. Have you been encouraged to not tell people what group you really represent? Have you been told that there are righteous of harmless lies? You are following the one you think you are not. Satan is leading you and lies are the proof of this truth.
Simply let your "Yes" be "Yes," and your "No" be "No"; anything beyond this comes from the evil one.
See how hard it is to make someone understand, just as it took Genny, who is a very bright and smart person, this much debating and talking and showing, and thinking, to come to understand even this subject.
Withholding and lying are not the same as deception and lying are in the same arena. If I am deceiving you there will be some lies involved. No? But if I am withholding must there be lies? What I withhold could be for greater good or for damnation. No?
In addition, I am aware we can do as we see fit. With that in mind, we must remember also that free will is a gift of grace but not to be abused. We sin/lie by choice, which is not within our natural makeup, it lies within the will – the choices we make, the ability to hear and choose.
Genny, you have made a very good point.
FTOS, you are using Genny's post to claim that she finally agrees with you that there is a time and place to reveal certain things. You ought to read the point she has made. Jesus did not tell them to lie to people if they were asked if Jesus was the messiah. You are neatly bypassing the fact that in the case of Ahn, his book about the New Jerusalem cannot be considered as revealing at the right time. He has made a certain assertion. Either that assertion is right and there is no mother god, or his assertion is false in which case he lied. You choose which you prefer and tell us.
Ah FTOS, you are back again. ๐ I hope you will get back in touch by PM again too.
Thank you for the compliment (I think). But I do believe you missed my main point, as Emil pointed out.
This is the deal about Jesus / God and lying, which also encompasses Ahn for you, since you believe him also to be God…
The Bible is quite clear that God does not lie, and that Satan is the father of lies.
When you take a passage like Matt. 16:20 and come to the conclusion that Jesus lied, and therefore God does sometimes lie, and it's not a problem because He is God after all, the lie is righteous and justified… you contradict the Bible's assertion that God does not lie and Satan is the father of lies.
However, if you take such a passage and consider… "Is there some other way to look at it, maybe something we do not fully know, that would show us this is not a lie after all?" Then you maintain the truth that God does not lie–no contradiction.
If you say (as I have heard other wmscog members say) Ahn wrote that there was no mother god because he needed to lie to protect the church from the wrong mother god, knowing he would reveal the truth later, it is still a lie and you have contradicted the Bible.
In some cases there is another way to think about it, something we do not fully know that would show us the statement in question is not a lie. In other cases, it is very clear that the statement is a lie, and there is no way around it.
Imagine my child asks me for money to buy a treat at the store, and you know I have some in my wallet. If I say, "No. I don't have any money." You can call that a lie. If I say, "I don't have any money for that." You cannot call that a lie. You might think it is because you know there's money in my wallet, but you don't know that I need that money for groceries on the way home, therefore the statement is true.
Back to Ahn and the mother god book… If he said "Um Soo In is not mother god," then you have a chance that someone else could be mother god and you can maintain your 'truth.' If he said "There is no mother god," but then later said "There is a mother god," then one of those statements is a lie–you can't get around that.
Jesus instructed his disciples not to make the announcement that He was the Messiah. There is still room for them to tell the truth.
If He had instructed them, "Tell people that I am not the Messiah" when He actually was, then it would be clearly a lie, no way around it.
"Do not tell I am the Messiah" is different than "Say I am not the Messiah."
In the same way, "Um Soo In is not mother god" is different than "There is no mother god."
So, FTOS, do you know how Ahn wrote about this in the book in question? I'm sure you do. Which way did he write?
Rather good!
Actually I didn't miss your point, and what I was talking about was not about the divinity of Ahnsahnghong and Mother but about the way Church of God members teach new comers which has been under critism here about not telling upfront about our belief in Father and Mother, my comment had nothing to do about the fact of their divinty, and even if it did, whether or not you believe in their divinty or not, the members of church of God are not lying to you because they believe in their divinity. I'm not saying that they are not God, but I will give you an example. If a color blind man, who did not know he was color blind said grass is grey, he would not be lying. Also I have no problem with Father saying "there is no Mother God". I remember you told me about the book you read which I really think would be enjoyable to read, but in it you pointed out the fact of the person telling the truth of the people hiding in the home. I think if that's what she felt was right to do and she didn't want to lie to protect them, then that's her right to. But personally even if she lied I believe that is the right thing to do also. I don't see a problem with lying to protect your loved ones or yourself from a life or death situation. You might try to believe God would not condone it, but you don't really know the answer to that 100%. I watched a movie about a psyco who was trying to kill this couple. I remember it vaguely but in it the phsyco ties up the boyfriend, one end to a wall or something and the other to a truck. Then he takes the girlfriend in to the truck with him and he starts moving forward the truck. Now the girl is frantic and begs him to stop and then she grabs for the physco's gun and points it at him but the physco just laughs at her and she ends up not being able to pull the trigger and the boyfriend gets ripped in half. Now you see she didn't have the heart to kill someone. Some people just can't do it. But that's fine not all of us have it in us to pull the trigger even when our loved ones are at risk. But for me I wouldn't think twice about. But you may fell it's wrong to kill someone and you may think even God wouldn't condone it but you don't know that for sure. And I'm not going to say I know the answer but my view point It's ok. I would do the samething. So Father saying that there is no Mother God, I do not fell or believe that takes away his divinity, and just because you feel it does, does not take it away either.
Isa 44:11"apart from me there is no other savior" But there is another savior and he Is Jesus. Tell me did Jehovah lie?
"There is no Mother God."
Great posts by Genny. Needs no further elaboration. An honest answer from FTOS is required now.
God works within a period of time and during that time he reveals certian things, to say there is no other savior is correct because even though there is Jesus it is not his time to be the savior, Just as it was not time for mother to be revealed.
Hmmm. FTOS, I don’t know if I quite agree. However, I do know that movie and I would have pulled that trigger. I thought she was silly.
yea I was totally against it, what if it was me there! Right! Well if that ever happens to me I'm gonna make sure Sarah is in that truck pulling that trigger! ^^
You bet! Lol.
FTOS said: "There is no Mother God"
Add to that, what Ahn said, "the idea of a Mother God is delusional" which statement transcends time. You cannot justify it using Is 44:11, which was in present tense, applying for that period in time.
Did he?
I was comparing Father's quote "there is no Mother God" to Isa.
I get you. What I am saying is that Ahn's statement did not end there. He goes on to assert that the heavenly Jerusalem is a place and not a person. A place built by God and not by human hands.
He next takes on Gal 4:22-26 and explains how the entire doctrine of using it to prove mother god is incorrect. He also goes on to critically analyze the absurdity of a mother god who is both a mother and a wife to Isaac.
FTOS, that is not my work. It is the work of the person you claim is 2CC. You either believe him or believe Zahng.
KF wrote:
Genny I love what you said and I agree with you 110% ๐ two thumbs up!
You know how people say "What's done in the dark comes to the light"? I was wondering if there is a verse in the bible about it. So I started browsing through Scripture and came across this.. Pro 11:13 A trustworthy person keeps a secret. With-holding information is keeping a secret. Jesus told the Disciples to keep a secret, not to lie. A trustworthy person is not someone who lies. So lying and with-holding information are not the same thing. Pro 12:22 God hates lying lips but not those who are trustworthy. .. But when we cross these 2 verses we can see that lying and with-holding information is not the same because God cannot hate lying but then call it a trustworthy thing.
Isa 44:11 Apart from Jehovah there is no saviour. Acts 4:12 Apart from Jesus there is no Saviour. Jesus and Jehovah are the same God the Father. Apart from God the Father there is no Saviour. Jesus and Jehovah are NOT God the Mother. The WMSCOG wants to add God the Mother as a Saviour as well..
http://usa.watv.org/truth/truth_life/content_elohim.asp – We sincerely hope that you can break your fixed, man-made ideas so that you can receive the true Saviours: ASH & Mother
The bible does not contradict itself. It is your false belief, FTOS, as well as all the other members', that there are 2 Saviours; a Saviour other than God the Father!
fromtheotherside wrote:
I was comparing Father's quote "there is no Mother God" to Isa.
Num 23:19 & 1 Sam 15:29 both say God does not lie. Saying there is no God the Mother when there is is a lie, FTOS. That makes ASH liar which makes him not God. But if he didn't lie then that makes Zahng or any other woman not God the Mother.
well said Rentia Payno! good points!~
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