- Topic
This addresses lies and New Jerusalem:
In Matthew 5:33-37 Jesus taught:
Again, you have heard that it was said to the people long ago, "Do not break your oath, but keep the oaths you have made to the Lord." But I tell you, Do not swear at all: either by heaven, for it is God's throne; or by the earth, for it is His footstool; or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the Great King. And do not swear by your head, for you cannot make make even one hair white or black. Simply let your "Yes" be "Yes," and your "No" be "No"; anything beyond this comes from the evil one.
If you have been encouraged by your group to lie either outright or by ommission know now that this comes from the evil one. Have you been encouraged to not tell people what group you really represent? Have you been told that there are righteous of harmless lies? You are following the one you think you are not. Satan is leading you and lies are the proof of this truth.
Simply let your "Yes" be "Yes," and your "No" be "No"; anything beyond this comes from the evil one.
Bottom line, they are all detestable or an abomination to him. So therefore, he hates all that was listed.
Words are about how we express and communicate them. We can tell the truth without hurting someone. A child who is dying needs to know that it’s a better life on the other side. We find this hard to do because of our attachment to the child. But the truth is if we are truly of Jesus Christ regardless of denomination, such person or child is going to a far greater place than here. While life is for the living, death isn’t always a bad thing but it’s hard to understand.
” So my dear child, while I will miss you dearly and don’t know what I’ll do without you, know that Jesus loves you so much more than I do and will give you more life than what I gave you. I will be with you soon.” After saying that, I will cry like crazy for days, i am sure and even vent to God about it, knowing my personality. It will never be easy to digest – never.
So why lie to the child on for them to find out when you meet again that you lied to them. 🙂
Sarah2013 wrote:
Bottom line, they are all detestable or an abomination to him. So therefore, he hates all that was listed.
No He doesn't. It said 7 were an abomination but He only hated 6. I get that they're all bad………………………….. I just wanted to know why God only hated 6 and not all 7. And which one of the 7 was the one He didn't hate………………. I get it.. stupid question.
PS that's the kind of stuff my missionary would say. The point is blah blah blah.. That's what she said when I question the dates of ASHs birth, baptism, and death in relation to King David. The point is 1918, 1948, and 1985……. excuse me for wanting to know details.
You don't know where that child is going. Just because you like the idea of an "innocent" child going to heaven doesn't mean that the child is [A] innocent and going to heaven. Here's an idea, KILL ALL THE CHILDREN! Since every Christian I've come across seems to believe all kids go to heaven, how about we just kill them all, blame it on the devil for tempting us, pray to God for forgiveness, then wait for our own deaths? That way we all can go to heaven and meet the children there.
My key word was “if we are truly of Jesus.” At that why wouldn’t the child go to heaven? And age of accountability is what determines if a non believing child goes to heaven.
renita.payno wrote:
It said 6 things God hates, 7 that are an abomination.. Which one doesn't God hate?
That kind of phrasing is typical of Hebrew poetry, like parallelism. You can find it other places in the Bible, like Job 5:19 and Amos 1:3. The "hates" and "abomination" parts are the parallelism. The numbers are also poetical, the second line building on the first line. The second number is what is intended in the count, but building up to it from the first number gives it poetic emphasis. More on Hebrew poetry here, if you're interested: http://www.journal33.org/bible/html/hebpoet.htm
Sarah2013 wrote:
My key word was "if we are truly of Jesus." At that why wouldn't the child go to heaven? And age of accountability is what determines if a non believing child goes to heaven.
This "age of accountability" thing has interested me especially, since those close to us have experienced the death of children. The Bible really doesn't have anything to say about an age of accountability, but we rely on God's mercy and special love for children to lead us to believe that He will take care of them.
I'll give my two cents about "righteous" lies, though…
I believe God's command is for us not to lie. When we start rationalizing that little lies are ok, then we are actually putting ourselves in the place of God, making up our own rules.
If it's a societal thing, where the person we are lying to knows and expects a lie from us, then we are not really deceiving anyone. But when we do deceive someone, even for a good intention, then again, we are putting our opinion of what we should do higher than what God has told us to do. If you deceive someone in order to spare their feelings, for example, it's not ok because you are trying to be nice, it's still a sin that needs repenting, even if you confess to God that you didn't know how to speak the truth in love so you told a lie. You can always ask for wisdom to better phrase yourself next time.
There are rare times when life and death is on the line (Such as when the Nazi asked if your friend was a Jew), but those times are rare so that you can't really build a doctrine around them. Just pray that God will help you in such a time with wisdom to know what to say. A lie would still be a lie in such a case. God can honor truth in such situations by doing something unexpected (such as in the life of Corrie ten Boom), or He can forgive our sin of lying when we feel it is the better of two evils. But I still wouldn't say that such a lie is not a sin. It is still a sin and we would need to ask forgiveness. Thank goodness God is in the forgiving business.
That would require an age of accountability to exist
Pickuach nefesh would cover the nazi situation
Genny, I couldn’t agree more with what you just said. It’s an even harder decision to admit to a Nazi that ones friend is a Jew knowing they will kill that friend. This is so true for that time. But one thing I like so much that you said is that God may cause something supernatural to happen. I like that. In other words, we should try to trust God first even if we will be humiliated. Wow. Tough but the right thing to do.
I won’t even go there on the accountability age issue.
Simon wrote:
Pickuach nefesh would cover the nazi situation
Can you explain that please, Simon?
Sarah2013 wrote:
Genny, I couldn't agree more with what you just said. It's an even harder decision to admit to a Nazi that ones friend is a Jew knowing they will kill that friend. This is so true for that time. But one thing I like so much that you said is that God may cause something supernatural to happen. I like that. In other words, we should try to trust God first even if we will be humiliated. Wow. Tough but the right thing to do.
Yes, it would be terribly tough, Sarah. Have you read Corrie ten Boom's The Hiding Place, by chance? I think about that every time this subject comes up.
No, I haven’t but I am curious now. Is it on kindle?
Is it similar to the movie about the Jewish people who hid in the attic for a year or so?
Basically every commandment except the fist three are not to take precedents over saving a life in imminent danger
Sarah2013 wrote:
No, I haven't but I am curious now. Is it on kindle?
Yes it is on kindle now: http://www.amazon.com/Hiding-Place-The-ebook/dp/B004TS1MGK/ref=tmm_kin_title_0?ie=UTF8&qid=1365352016&sr=8-1
I believe the lie part is in chapter 7.
I think maybe the movie you are thinking of is Anne Frank. Corrie ten Boom did have a secret room built to hide Jews, but they didn't live in the secret room.
Simon wrote:
Basically every commandment except the fist three are not to take precedents over saving a life in imminent danger
Thanks Simon. I figured it was something about Noah's covenant of respecting life taking precedence over Moses' covenant of 10 commandments. But that makes sense that the first three commandments would be preeminent.
Ok. Thanks, Genny. I’ll read it on kindle.
While I know we all have different opinions- I have to say that I have really enjoyed Sarah, Genny and Renita's posts on this subject. Renita posted another side that should be examined.
I don't know if I believe in this age of accountability thing. You have 30,40, 50, 60, 70, 80 year olds in this world who are very innocent, and you have ten year olds that are evil. Even a five year old may not be perfectly innocent. I think it depends on the individual. We can't always say a child is better than an adult because that may not necessarily be the case. Do I think majority of children are sweet, loving and innocent? – Absolutely, I do. However, not in every single case, so i'm just throwing that out there. But I think "age of accountability," if there is such a thing, varies with each invididual.
But I do really like Sarah and Genny's insight and wisdom on this subject. I think Sarah's response to the dying child was absolutely beautiful, and I would probably want to say something similar to that. Of course, we should pray for wisdom from God and let him know that our intentions were in the right place.
Also, God is not going to intervene and allow a supernatural event to take place everytime someone refrains from lying. How many have genuinely good-hearted God-loving people have tried to to the same thing but continue to get less than favorable results? I'd rather be smart about the situation. I think to expect God to come through with a supernatural event everytime you refrain from telling a lie in a life or death situation is just plain dumb. Sorry to be blunt.
I just think for anyone to 100% never tell a lie, is impossible. No different from striving to fly. You can flap your arms all you want, but it's not going to happen. Never has, never will. I am not about anything impossible. Instead I rather put my effort and energy towards the practical things that I can do to become a better person. I think there are some situations where there really is no right answer/response/solution. Also- just throwing this out there- a lie is not only a simple utterance. Can't a lie also be any part of our life that isn't in sync with others? I think anyone is lying if they say everything in their life is perfectly in sync.
Can't a lie also be:
Pretending to be patient when you know that you aren't.
Having credit card debt- but still shopping a bit more than you should.
You are overweight- yet you have a gym membership or wear work-out clothes.
Living in a country that you shouldn't be in- trying to make a better life for yourself of your family.
Working a job that you don't love- trying to support yourself, so you have food to eat and a roof to live under.
Going to church when you don't feel like it- but giving the impression that you want to be there.
Wear your seatbelt in the car- yet you like to go sky-diving or ride your bike without a helmet.
Not wanting your child to use certain choice words- but have no problems when your friends do.
Those might not be the most perfect examples, but there are a lots of ways that people can have contradictions in certain things about their lifestyle. And I'm not saying its necessarily bad. I don't think anything I listed is really all that bad, but it is in a form a lie. But I think people would try to justify some of those things more than they would an utterance. I see it all the time.
In my opinion, some of these things can be even bigger issues than a simple utterance. I mean, isn't a lie a lie? Do certain contradictions or double-standards get a pass? Shall people pray for forgiveness for those types of things as well?
Great oberservations and points, Liberty. In addition to what you have said about the age of accountability; when I say age of accountability, I am with the school of thought that believes no one knows that age of accountability. Only God knows when one is accountable for his/her actions. For some that age might have been earlier or later than others. That's what my understanding of it is.
A lie is a non truth you intentionally allow someone to believe when you yourself are aware of it’s falsehood
some of the list may be hypocrisy but most is just idiosyncrasies.
re age of accountability age I don’t believe in level of awareness/maturity maybe
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