- Topic
This addresses lies and New Jerusalem:
In Matthew 5:33-37 Jesus taught:
Again, you have heard that it was said to the people long ago, "Do not break your oath, but keep the oaths you have made to the Lord." But I tell you, Do not swear at all: either by heaven, for it is God's throne; or by the earth, for it is His footstool; or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the Great King. And do not swear by your head, for you cannot make make even one hair white or black. Simply let your "Yes" be "Yes," and your "No" be "No"; anything beyond this comes from the evil one.
If you have been encouraged by your group to lie either outright or by ommission know now that this comes from the evil one. Have you been encouraged to not tell people what group you really represent? Have you been told that there are righteous of harmless lies? You are following the one you think you are not. Satan is leading you and lies are the proof of this truth.
Simply let your "Yes" be "Yes," and your "No" be "No"; anything beyond this comes from the evil one.
Funnily I have been told to righteously lie more outside wmscog than in
I definitely thinks it's okay to tell a "righteous lie." I don't care who disagrees. They are not practical, and I ignore impractical people.
I have 100% say in this. I have read it tons of times. And don't act like you know all the answers when you don't. You are a human being just like the rest of us.
You didn't upset me, and you don't have to apologize. But you can't say that I can't give my opinion on the matter, because this is a forum. But of course, I'll always try to give my opinion in a respectful fashion (and if I don't, I apologize).
I know what the bible says, but just due to many various life experiences, I see things differently. From my point of view, the bible isn' always practical but I believe God in Heaven is practical. I will always try to please God in all of my actions- however in some things- I have to rely my best judgment and decision making. Consulting God in prayer is always good of course.
But while I don't think lying is good, I do believe there is a time and place for certain lies. I've made post about it before.
While I completely agree with Joshua, I don't want to be judgemental about those who disagree. My biggest concern is about the definition of "righteous". This introduces a grey (or do you guys say gray? sorry British/American English) area.
I believe this is much like alcoholism. A small peg is ok to begin with. Then, after a while, you need a larger peg to produce the same effect. Then still larger, until finally, you are hooked.
I do not like to use the "righteous" excuse myself because, after a while, I will make convenience-based judgements on what is and isn't righteous. This then becomes a trap.
For instance, yesterday I was skimming through the other website attacking this one. In it they express how it is OK for God to lie because he knows best. It is therefore OK for Ahn to lie because he is God. Their faith is based on this circular argument. Then they go out and tell others "righteous lies" because it is righteous to bring others to their god.
Not sure if I have adequately explained the danger of justifying "righteous" lies.
Grey is the color. Gray is the name. =)
I don't believe in a righteous lie but I believe there are some meassures that call for a lie. A righteous lie is an oxymoron!
Simon wrote:
Funnily I have been told to righteously lie more outside wmscog than in
Even if true, does this somehow justify what was done "in"?
Liberty wrote:
I have 100% say in this. I have read it tons of times. And don't act like you know all the answers when you don't. You are a human being just like the rest of us.
I believe the point Joshua is making is to emphasize that the rules within the group, as he was aware of it, were inconsistent. Liberty, sorry, but you have muddied the waters of the point at hand. You are entitled to your opinion, yes. But at least acknowledge that the expansion of the argument (vis a vis your reply to the OP) benefits your point in a somewhat narcissistic manner, when the OP appeared to desire to make a point about group inconsistency.
Of course, anyone is free to correct me on the issue.
I personally believe that, though it may seem befitting to lie at some instance, God will not condone a lie at all. So therefore, there ought not to be anything called a righteous lie. Until the bible can prove otherwise, it is wrong. Fear(satan’s greatest tactic), however, may attribute to one telling a lie even when they are strong Christians but this is why perfecting our faith will help stop such, cause when faith is real, fear runs out.
Having said that, wmscog ought to know this, especially with god in their midst, don’t you agree? God cannot lie – it is impossible for God to lie or advise one to lie, if he does, which he won’t, then it wasn’t a lie to begin with. If it does turn out to be a lie after all, then he can’t be God.
@ Simon: by whom? If by a Church other than Wmscog, then friend, get out of that church. If by the world, then consider who they are.
I second what Sarah2013 said to Simon. I also agree about what she has said about lies. The bible explicitly tells us that satan is the father of deceit. Yet yesterday I read members of the wmscog saying that Ahn has a right to lie because he is god. If they understood the bible then they would understand what is the original source of lies.
By every church I ever attended before wmscog.
Haven’t been to one since
As far as questionings question wmscog cant be held to a differing standard was my point
Simon wrote:
As far as questionings question wmscog cant be held to a differing standard was my point
Fair enough and excellent point, Simon.
Excellent point as well, emil.
Liberty wrote:
I definitely thinks it's okay to tell a "righteous lie." I don't care who disagrees. They are not practical, and I ignore impractical people.
There are six things that the LORD hates, seven that are an abomination to him: haughty eyes, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, a heart that devises wicked plans, feet that make haste to run to evil, a false witness who breathes out lies, and one who sows discord among brothers.
QUESTION: What does a person (with a heart) tell a child who has cancer, when the child will ask his/her parent, mommy/daddy Am I going to die?
mommy/daddy why is this happening to me? did I do something bad ?
A wife will ask her husband, honey do these jeans make my butt look big…..dilemma….if the husband says yes or no (could get in trouble either way) if he thinks it looks big, but lies and says no, does it make it right?
God clearly hates a liar, and everyone lies, EVERYDAY! small lie, big lie, still a lie.
or does God consider a lie in order not to hurt someones feelings acceptable? Is there an example of this in the bible.
If you bear false witness you are lying, and that's one of the commandments. So are we all going to hell. Be honest when was the last time anyone here said the truth in a 24 hour period.
remember this movie:http://youtu.be/C1no75lpOiw
According to Jesus you're supposed to tell the child, Yes you're going to die but you will go to heaven if you follow My will.
But you're not going to hell because all you have to do is confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and you'll go to heaven even if you lied within the last 24 hours.. sarcasm. I don't buy it. If God is true to His word then all you liars will be outside the gates with the dogs and prostitutes.
Questioninginla wrote:
Simon wrote:
Funnily I have been told to righteously lie more outside wmscog than in
Even if true, does this somehow justify what was done "in"?
Liberty wrote:
I have 100% say in this. I have read it tons of times. And don't act like you know all the answers when you don't. You are a human being just like the rest of us.
I believe the point Joshua is making is to emphasize that the rules within the group, as he was aware of it, were inconsistent. Liberty, sorry, but you have muddied the waters of the point at hand. You are entitled to your opinion, yes. But at least acknowledge that the expansion of the argument (vis a vis your reply to the OP) benefits your point in a somewhat narcissistic manner, when the OP appeared to desire to make a point about group inconsistency.
Of course, anyone is free to correct me on the issue.
I completely disagree with you QuestioninginLA. The very title of the thread is, "For those who think a reightous like is ok." For example, people like me. The first post shows scriptural evidence from the Bible. Joshua was trying to show through the bible that a lie is not okay.
emil wrote:
While I completely agree with Joshua, I don't want to be judgemental about those who disagree. My biggest concern is about the definition of "righteous". This introduces a grey (or do you guys say gray? sorry British/American English) area.
I believe this is much like alcoholism. A small peg is ok to begin with. Then, after a while, you need a larger peg to produce the same effect. Then still larger, until finally, you are hooked.
I do not like to use the "righteous" excuse myself because, after a while, I will make convenience-based judgements on what is and isn't righteous. This then becomes a trap.
For instance, yesterday I was skimming through the other website attacking this one. In it they express how it is OK for God to lie because he knows best. It is therefore OK for Ahn to lie because he is God. Their faith is based on this circular argument. Then they go out and tell others "righteous lies" because it is righteous to bring others to their god.
Not sure if I have adequately explained the danger of justifying "righteous" lies.
I completely understand your point emil, and it was well-stated. That's why it's always best to consult God in prayer.
KF wrote:
Liberty wrote:
I definitely thinks it's okay to tell a "righteous lie." I don't care who disagrees. They are not practical, and I ignore impractical people.
There are six things that the LORD hates, seven that are an abomination to him: haughty eyes, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, a heart that devises wicked plans, feet that make haste to run to evil, a false witness who breathes out lies, and one who sows discord among brothers.
LOL, according to that verse, God must certainly hate me (eye roll). But of course, I know that he doesn't. The thing is – I'm not perfect- never have been, never will be. And same for every other mortal person who has ever lived on this earth. So stop kidding yourself. "Perfection," as the bible defines it is impossible. You will never achieve it. So like I said tons of times before, I'm all about practicality. I really like the examples that KF brought up in his post. That's another thing about the Bible. It's way too imcomplete. It doesn't not provide an example to everything. That's why I'm more about prayer and having a personal connection with God. All the questions and dilemma's that I have cannot be answered in a single book. I've never been more unhappy in my life then when I tried to base all of my living/values/morals/habits, etc, etc. on the bible. Never did I have more questions, more unfulfillment or more separation from God than when I tried to use the Bible. Yet as soon as I free myself from all the religious bondage, I'm so much happier.
Fair enough and good point. I framed around the info within the post and didn't take the title into account.
It said 6 things God hates, 7 that are an abomination.. Which one doesn't God hate?
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