- Topic
In another thread, fromtheotherside, speaking of the materials presented againt the wmscog, said "none of your evidences speak for itself. if you have such evidence present it without your explanation."
I presented several 'evidences without explanation' there, but I think it would be a good idea to take each one separately into its own thread. Here's the first one:
Regarding the teaching of the Catholic Church being the Antichrist: the Ostrogoths were not destroyed in 538, the '10 kingdoms' from the Roman empire were not as the WMSCOG presents, 5 were destroyed not 3, and the destruction or survival of these 'kingdoms' did not depend on their following the Catholic Church. These are historical, textbook facts.
I originally did not link to my research about it, because fromtheotherside did not want explanation, but if you'd like to see the research, I've collected it here:
http://encountering-ahnsahnghong.blogspot.com/2011/11/daniels-prophecy.html
http://encountering-ahnsahnghong.blogspot.com/2011/08/is-666-pope-part-3.html
fromtheotherside tried to answer this point but so far was unsuccessful. I'll copy those pieces of the conversation here from the other thread, just to keep everything together.
Those instructions in 1 Tim 3 were relevant in the context of the arly church where the elders were already married men. Paul was putting conditions relevant to the existing situation. Your bold emphasis implies that one could not be a church leader unless he was a married man and had children. Rather rigid interpretation.
I have to say ultimately it is unnatural for a thread not to wander
Simon wrote:
Not sure it proves the hierarchy is set and cannot be redone and is infallible etc
"Equally, it is for the rest of you to hold the deacons in as great respect as Jesus Christ; just as you should also look on the bishop as a type of the Father, and the clergy as the Apostolic circle forming His council; for without these three orders no church has any right to the name." – St. Ignatius of Antioch, Epistle to the Trallians, 3.
that doesn't address what you quoted
genny wrote:
Hi all. I'm sensing a need for caution and wanted to put this out there…
Remember the purpose of this forum is to examine the WMSCOG. It's interesting to examine and compare the Catholicism and Protestantism, but lets not let that dilute and detract from the main purpose. After all, there are many things Catholics and Protestants agree about, and both have many disagreements with the wmscog.
Guess I'm just thinking, even though it's an interesting discussion, let's be careful not to get too far down the rabbit trail of Catholic vs Protestant and too far away from the main road of Christianity vs the WMSCOG. And if you'd like to delve into the Catholic vs. Protestant discussion, maybe give it its own thread.
Please remember the main focus of this thread was the historical errors of the wmscog regarding the 10 kingdoms and 1260 years. Whatever our personal feelings about the Catholic Church (good, bad, or in between), they do not match the requirements of the Antichrist according to the WMSCOG's own interpretation–the historical record does not match up.
You are absolutely right. There are many threads in these forums where I was tempted to correct some anti-Catholic notions but refrained from posting details for the reason that this site is examining wmscog. In this thread, such discussion is borderline OK because this thread is a discussion about whether the Catholic Church can be the antichrist.
There is a huge body of misconception out there about the Catholic church. Fullton Sheen said:
There are not one hundred people in the United States who hate The Catholic Church, but there are millions who hate what they wrongly perceive the Catholic Church to be.
Am I one of the anti-Catholics? Lol…
Sarah2013 wrote:
Am I one of the anti-Catholics? Lol…
You notice I said anti-Catholic notions not anti-Catholic people. I suppose you were kidding but clarifying all the same.
If you really want to know what I think of you, I believe you have had a fair share of anti-Catholic notions but I have great respect and admiration for you because you are one person who has never hesitated to accept a different, logical point of view and even changed your own view when you realized you were wrong. Great signs of both maturity and humility. As rare in this world as the ubiquitous "common sense".
genny wrote:
emil wrote:
There is a huge body of misconception out there about the Catholic church. Fullton Sheen said:
There are not one hundred people in the United States who hate The Catholic Church, but there are millions who hate what they wrongly perceive the Catholic Church to be.
That is a great quote, emil. I think it's good to try to clear those misperceptions, especially if we can do so in a way that doesn't appear to be fighting between Christians–I think that would only hurt our cause.
I've refrained a bit from speaking in this thread. But just throwing it out there. I know plenty of people, including myself, who dislike the catholic church from personal experiences, not from misconceptions. That quote is 100% wrong, imo. God would never allow bad experiences to happen in the true church. They would never happen PERIOD.God is 100% good and his church would be as well.
Not just slamming the Catholic Church here. No church is 100% good. It's just like how we know the wmscog was bad because of our experienes there. Certain things wouldn't have happened had they been 100% good. How can we pose a double standard for another denomination? Shouldn't we examine our own churches/doctrines/religions/whatever as critically as we do the wmscog?
The fact that Christians fight only proves that no one knows the truth. Someone posted a quote about orphans.
But I actually agree with the wmscog's stance that all truth would be lost once the apostles died, and no one was left to defend it. We will never be orphans because God in Heaven is our Father/Mother/Provider/whatever. But not being an orphan doesn't mean that we have all the truth.
But I'm probably not helping the issue here, but I always like to give my opinion on the matter.
Matthew 13:24-30 There is good and bad in Christ's kingdom.
John 16:13 The Holy Spirit will lead us into "all" truth.
Matthew 16:18-19 Christ founded a Church, the gates of hell will not prevail against it, and he gave his authority to Peter.
Those are all beautiful scriptures Irenaeus. I do admire that you use scriptural evidence for the basis of your beliefs.
But I'm a very different person in that regard. Even if there is good and bad in Christ's church, there are just some things that I cannot, will not and will never ever accept from a church. Also, it is my personal experiences that lead me to the beliefs that I have now and I am pretty firm on that. Nothing can change that either, not even God. The reason I say that, is because I believe God is the one who allowed those experiences to happen in the first place, so that he could tell me something. And I heard those reasons loud and clear, and he definitely got his point across.
I believe everything happens for a reason. Some things hapen to show you were you should not be. Just like the wmscog.
I also believe that each individual is different and what speaks/works for some will not speak/work for others. I also believe that was God's doing for a wonderful purpose. Another reason why I believe there is no "truth" on Earth, because we were not all meant to operate the same way.
Some things we should indeed, never accept. As a Catholic, there are indeed things I refuse to accept from certain clergy, certain laymen… But doctrine and the sacraments are not among them.
Personal experience is indeed a profound influence. I truly believe the Catholic Church is Christ's Church, and that Christ longs to receive each one of us in Holy Communion and eventually into His arms in Heaven… He desired this from all eternity, and but He only became man in the fullness of time. I've wonder if He only calls each one of us in our own "fullness of time."
Just don't write off what God can do.
@Liberty – As IrenaeusFTW said all is not right with the Catholic Church. But what is wrong has to do with some of the people in the church hierarchy and not with its doctrine. The perception of the Catholic Church alluded to in the quote has to do with what people think is the doctrine v/s what the doctrine actually is.I don't deny that you had bad personal experiences during your time at a Catholic school. However, there are mitigating circumstances. You were looking at the situation with the eyes of a child with limited understanding. Don't misunderstand me. I do not underestimate your trauma. Just asking for understanding.
Let me explain a bit about your holy communion experience. Holy communion in the Catholic church is a sacrament. It is the real presence of Jesus in the form of the host of bread. This is entirely different from communion as understood by most Protestants AFAIK. Therefore, a child has to go through a year of formation before receiving holy communion for the first time. I accept that you may have known scripture much better than any of those catholic children. But the fact is that you had not been prepared to receive communion as the body of Jesus.
That then is one of the misconceptions of the Catholic Church that you have.
It appears that there were other experiences that you had, which were because of people making bad choices in interacting with you. That is not the Catholic Church. Those are Catholics. Note the difference. Catholics, the priest, the bishops, the Pope, are all sinners too. That is not about doctrine but about people. The experiences you had could have just as well been with any other humans. But since they were catholics, it being a catholic school, your mind is associating your experience with the idea that "the Catholic Church is bad".
It would be truly liberating for you to sit with a knowledgeable Catholic and narrate your experiences and ask for explanation of some things which you perceived to be very wrong. It would help you to truly forgive and forget once you put those experiences in the right context.
I am sorry if you find this post hurtful in any way. That is not my intention. I truly believe that a proper understanding of your past experiences will help you to enhance your personal relationship with God.
A morally infallible person/church as is claimed by roman doctrine cannot commit the most heinous crimes in human history
The true church can’t have doctrine the bible says is demonic
the gates of hades/death not overcoming the called out ones doesn’t make them infallible
Simon wrote:
A morally infallible person/church as is claimed by roman doctrine cannot commit the most heinous crimes in human history
The true church can't have doctrine the bible says is demonic
the gates of hades/death not overcoming the called out ones doesn't make them infallible
Interesting….
Simon wrote:
A morally infallible person/church as is claimed by roman doctrine cannot commit the most heinous crimes in human history
The true church can't have doctrine the bible says is demonic
the gates of hades/death not overcoming the called out ones doesn't make them infallible
vague as usual.
whatever if you want to play insult the non catholic thats your problem
Vague once more. Where is the insult? Where have I ever insulted anyone for not being Catholic? Simon I wonder if you are paranoid.
All I said is that you were vague as usual. Why? You make brief statements without explaining yourself.
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