Evidence regarding Antichrist and Daniel teachings

  • Creator
    Topic
  • #7118
    genny
    Participant

    In another thread, fromtheotherside, speaking of the materials presented againt the wmscog, said "none of your evidences speak for itself.  if you have such evidence present it without your explanation."

    I presented several 'evidences without explanation' there, but I think it would be a good idea to take each one separately into its own thread.  Here's the first one:

    Regarding the teaching of the Catholic Church being the Antichrist: the Ostrogoths were not destroyed in 538, the '10 kingdoms' from the Roman empire were not as the WMSCOG presents, 5 were destroyed not 3, and the destruction or survival of these 'kingdoms' did not depend on their following the Catholic Church.  These are historical, textbook facts.

    I originally did not link to my research about it, because fromtheotherside did not want explanation, but if you'd like to see the research, I've collected it here:

    http://encountering-ahnsahnghong.blogspot.com/2011/11/daniels-prophecy.html

    http://encountering-ahnsahnghong.blogspot.com/2011/08/is-666-pope-part-3.html

    fromtheotherside tried to answer this point but so far was unsuccessful.  I'll copy those pieces of the conversation here from the other thread, just to keep everything together.

  • #52672

    fromtheotherside
    Participant

    I'm trying to understand your view point, How can the fourth beast represent a futuristic revived Rome?  as it said after the 3rd beast, that means the roman empire, then their should be a 5th beast to represent the revived Rome.

    #52673

    genny
    Participant

    The 10 kingdoms come out of a kind of revived Roman empire, which would still be the fourth beast.  It's a theory, but I can't say for sure exactly how it will happen because it hasn't happened yet (in the futurist view).

    Are you exploring a new idea for yourself, or are you avoiding the main question?

    #52674

    fromtheotherside
    Participant

    No just trying to understand you Genny, see what type of belief you have.  Anyhow, 538 is significant as it is the day that the ostrogoths lost italy, mainly Rome.  Most historians do conclude that there hold as a nation did dwindle, but significantly Rome was lost.  And rome is the seat for the Roman empire. 

    #52675

    fromtheotherside
    Participant

    I mean year that the ostrogoths lost rome

    #52676

    Joshua
    Participant

    Nice work Genny! Keep firing the facts at him. I haven't seen any real disput come from him that is reasonable against what you have. You're fighting the good fight! Maybe you will be the one to help remove the scales from his eyes.

    #52677

    Love'n Honey
    Participant

    but ostrogoths hadn't fallen that year. they had only lost a war. they were still they're own kingdom until 550 something. that's when they dissolved.

    germany lost a war but they're still here.

    #52678

    fromtheotherside
    Participant

    exactly, they lost a big war, which was a turning point that they couldn't revive from.  With germany, they are still here because no body took over their country.  But the ostrogoths were dissolved that is the outcome.  

    It's the same thing with the point about alexander.  We preach that alexander's kingdom was divided in to four. but actually the end result is three, because one got conquered fairly quickly.  Also it wasn't from the begining either, if you read about the war of the diodite? Ithink that how you say it, it is very complicated, there were many wars and many divisions, it wasn't just a simple four way split.  

    The reason for this study is to determine the beast.  In my eyes, the Catholic Church fits the bill to the letter.  Even if you can make arguments about the Alexander or the 10 kingdoms.  It's the same with the sabbath or sunday, you guys say the truth will stands up to scruitny? But sunday does not stand up to scruitny it can be disputed and argued against, and also with the sabbath.  But one of them has to be the "truth" sunday or saturday.  Christmas is this truth? this can also be made a idol, and the feasts of God you guys argue it all the time. This is not to critisize Elie but, remember our Passsover debate, I brought arguments about her beliefs and she against mine in the end no one proved anything, then is she false? Am I false? There are people not from the COG that do believe in the Passover then are they false?  Everything can be argued even Jesus, The jews say hes not the messiah (by the way haven't seen hal here for a while) theirs people who argue he is just a prophet and not god. Everyone can bring out something to the table about anything in the bible.  

    The point is, is that the only ones to change a lot of God's laws are the Catholics. They speak against God because they say they divine right to change anything in the bible, and they are the largest organization in the world. Sure there are others who speak against God, by saying they can do this and that also, but the catholic church is the only church that has lunchens with all the leaders around the world and has an influence in the world like no other.  So to me they fit all the characteristics of the beast. Inquistion they killed alot of christians, no other history like that. 

    Genny believes in the futurist view, But there view doesn't hold up any more then the historic view, not trying to put down Genny, but it doesn't.  My point is, is anything can be argued against.  But I still look at the catholics and see the points about the prophecy of the beast and see the similarites. 

    #52679

    Love'n Honey
    Participant

    Yes, Ostrogoths lost a war 538 but they were still standing. When they didn't get back up was later. The WMSCOG teaches that they were completely conquered in 538 which is a lie. Germany lost a war but they are still standing. It doesn't matter if they were bound to lose everything after the war in 538. The date that matters is that they lost everything in 550 something.

    #52680

    genny
    Participant

    What I hear from you, fromtheotherside, is that you want the Catholic Church to be the Beast (the Antichrist), and if the information doesn't exactly fit, you don't really care because you think it should.  Kind of like pounding the puzzle piece in because you think it should be the right one even though it doesn't exactly fit.

    Because you trusted Ridpath's History (even though it was drastically misquoted–doesn't that bother you?), I'm going to quote from it for you, so you can see that 538 is not as significant as you would like it to be.  I'm going to start on page 414, and if you'd like to read it for yourself to make sure I haven't left out anything important, you can read it here: http://www.archive.org/stream/ridpathshist02ridp#page/414/mode/2up

    It's a long quote, but I think it's necessary to see the climate of this war.  I'll put some notable points in bold.

    In the midst of their distress the Goths, conceiving that Belisarius but for his obedience to Justinian would make them a better king than their own, offered to surrender the city [Ravenna] into his hands and become his subjects, if he would renounce his allegiance to the Emperor of the East and accept the crown of Italy.  Belisarius seemed to comply.  Ravenna was given up by the Goths, and the victor took possession.  It was, however, no part of the purpose of Belisarius to prove traitor to the Emperor, though the conduct of Justinian towards himself furnished an excellent excuse for treason.  The suspicion of the thing done soon reached Constantinople, and Justinian made haste to recall the conqueror from the West.  So the hero, who by his military genius and personal courage had well-nigh [meaning almost or very nearly] recovered the entire Western Empire of the Romans, took ship at Ravenna and sailed for the Eastern capital.

    With the departure of Belisarius the courage of the Goths revived.  They still possessed Pavia, which was defended by a thousand warriors, and what was far more valuable, the unconquerable love of freedom.  TOTILA, a nephew of Vitiges, was called to the throne, and intrusted with the work of reestablishing the kingdom.  Of the Roman generals whom Belisarius left behind him in Italy, not one proved equal to the task of meeting the Goth in the field.  The latter traversed the country without opposition, marched through the heart of Italy, and compelled submission even to the extremes of Calabria.  He then pitched his camp before Rome, and with an impudence not devoid of truth invited the Senate to compare his reign with the tyranny of the Greek Empire.

    … Meanwhile Totila laid actual seige to Rome, and adopted starvation as his ally.

    … The beseiged were gradually reduced to the extremity of eating bread made of bran and devouring dogs, cats, and mice, to say nothing of dead horses and offal.  When Belisarius landed in Italy he made an ineffectual attempt to raise the seige of the city, and the Romans were then obliged to capitulate.  In the day of the surrender the barbarian in Totila asserted itself, and the city was given up to indiscriminate pillage….

    The Gothic king next directed his march into Southern Italy, where he overran Lucania and Apulia and quickly restored the Gothic supremacy as far as the strait of Messina.  Scarcely, however, had Totila departed upon his southern expedition when Belisarius, who had established himself in the port of Rome, sallied forth with extraordinary daring, and regained possession of the city.  He then exerted himself to the utmost to repair the defenses, and was so successful in this work that when, after twenty-five days, Totila returned from the South the Goths were repulsed in three successive assaults.  Nor did it appear impossible that with seasonable reinforcements from the East Belisarius might soon recover not only Rome but the whole of Italy.  To the message of his general, however, Justinian replied only after a long silence; and even then the order transmitted to the West was that Belisarius should retire into Lucania.  Thus paralyzed by the jealousy of the Emperor, the old veteran languished in the South, while the Goths regained the advantage.  In 549 they again beseiged and captured Rome….

    … [Belisarius] was succeeded in the command of the Roman army in the West by the eunuch NARSES, who in a body of contemptible stature concealed the spirit of a warrior.  The dispatch of Justinian recalling Belisarius had declared that the remnant of the Gothic war was no longer worthy of his presence.  It was this "remnant" [yes, Ridpath uses the quotes] that in the year 551 was entrusted to Narses.  His powers were ample and his genius sufficient for a greater work.  On arriving in Italy he made haste to bring matters to the crisis of battle.  On his way from Ravenna to Rome he became convinced that delay would be fatal to success.  On every side there were evidences of a counter-revolution in favor of the Goths.  It was evident that nothing but a victory could restore the influence of the Byzantine government in the West.  Advaning rapidly on the capital he met the Goths in the Flaminian Way, a short distance from the city.  Here, in July of 552, the fate of the kingdom established by Theodoric was yielded to the arbitrament of arms.  A fierce and obstinate conflict ensued in which Totila was slain and his army scattered to the winds.  Narses received the keys of Rome in the name of his master, this being the fifth time [the italic's are Ridpath's] that the Eternal City had been taken during the reign of Justinian.  The remanants of the Goths retired beyond the Po, where they assembled and chose TEIAS for their king.

    … In the year 553 Narses met this second army in battle and again routed the Goths and killed their king….  It was evident that the kingdom of the Goths was in the hour and article of death.

    … Here, in 554, the petty eunuch inflicted on the barbarians a defeat so decisive as to refix the status of Italy.  The greater part of the Gothic army perished either by the sword or in attempting to cross the river…

    …Thus, in the year 554, after a period of sixty years' duration, was subverted the Ostrogothic throne of Italy….

    If you don't wish to mark the bitter end of the Ostrogoths (554), but would rather mark the decisive battle, then according to Ridpath that would be 552.

    If you disagree and wish to say that other historians claim 538 at the decisive point, please give a soure for that.  Which historical book should I read to find that information?

    #52681

    genny
    Participant

    PS–I typed that all out myself, so please forgive any typos. 🙂

    #52682

    fromtheotherside
    Participant

    fromtheotherside wrote:

    exactly, they lost a big war, which was a turning point that they couldn't revive from.  With germany, they are still here because no body took over their country.  But the ostrogoths were dissolved that is the outcome.  

    It's the same thing with the point about alexander.  We preach that alexander's kingdom was divided in to four. but actually the end result is three, because one got conquered fairly quickly.  Also it wasn't from the begining either, if you read about the war of the diodite? Ithink that how you say it, it is very complicated, there were many wars and many divisions, it wasn't just a simple four way split.  

    The reason for this study is to determine the beast.  In my eyes, the Catholic Church fits the bill to the letter.  Even if you can make arguments about the Alexander or the 10 kingdoms.  It's the same with the sabbath or sunday, you guys say the truth will stands up to scruitny? But sunday does not stand up to scruitny it can be disputed and argued against, and also with the sabbath.  But one of them has to be the "truth" sunday or saturday.  Christmas is this truth? this can also be made a idol, and the feasts of God you guys argue it all the time. This is not to critisize Elie but, remember our Passsover debate, I brought arguments about her beliefs and she against mine in the end no one proved anything, then is she false? Am I false? There are people not from the COG that do believe in the Passover then are they false?  Everything can be argued even Jesus, The jews say hes not the messiah (by the way haven't seen hal here for a while) theirs people who argue he is just a prophet and not god. Everyone can bring out something to the table about anything in the bible.  

    The point is, is that the only ones to change a lot of God's laws are the Catholics. They speak against God because they say they divine right to change anything in the bible, and they are the largest organization in the world. Sure there are others who speak against God, by saying they can do this and that also, but the catholic church is the only church that has lunchens with all the leaders around the world and has an influence in the world like no other.  So to me they fit all the characteristics of the beast. Inquistion they killed alot of christians, no other history like that. 

    Genny believes in the futurist view, But there view doesn't hold up any more then the historic view, not trying to put down Genny, but it doesn't.  My point is, is anything can be argued against.  But I still look at the catholics and see the points about the prophecy of the beast and see the similarites. 

    Actually they do fit precisely, the points leading up to it about the ostrogoths' can be debated but the overall picture fits perfectly.  

    #52683

    fromtheotherside
    Participant

    Also the goths did show weakness after the loss of Rome.  Even to offer to make Belsarius emperor of Byzantine.  The wars after were mere revolts, that they were still defeated. 

    http://www.heritage-history.com/www/heritage.php?Dir=wars&FileName=wars_ostrogoths.php

    At any rate, They fit perfectly for the points of the beast.  Speak against God, Change his set times and laws, persecute gods saints. The beast in Revelations fit perfectly also.  Babylon, She sits on many waters, the whole world worships this beast because of her.   

    There is no doubt that the Catholic Church does fit, 

    #52684

    fromtheotherside
    Participant

    genny wrote:

    What I hear from you, fromtheotherside, is that you want the Catholic Church to be the Beast (the Antichrist), and if the information doesn't exactly fit, you don't really care because you think it should.  Kind of like pounding the puzzle piece in because you think it should be the right one even though it doesn't exactly fit.

    Because you trusted Ridpath's History (even though it was drastically misquoted–doesn't that bother you?), I'm going to quote from it for you, so you can see that 538 is not as significant as you would like it to be.  I'm going to start on page 414, and if you'd like to read it for yourself to make sure I haven't left out anything important, you can read it here: http://www.archive.org/stream/ridpathshist02ridp#page/414/mode/2up

    It's a long quote, but I think it's necessary to see the climate of this war.  I'll put some notable points in bold.

    In the midst of their distress the Goths, conceiving that Belisarius but for his obedience to Justinian would make them a better king than their own, offered to surrender the city [Ravenna] into his hands and become his subjects, if he would renounce his allegiance to the Emperor of the East and accept the crown of Italy.  Belisarius seemed to comply.  Ravenna was given up by the Goths, and the victor took possession.  It was, however, no part of the purpose of Belisarius to prove traitor to the Emperor, though the conduct of Justinian towards himself furnished an excellent excuse for treason.  The suspicion of the thing done soon reached Constantinople, and Justinian made haste to recall the conqueror from the West.  So the hero, who by his military genius and personal courage had well-nigh [meaning almost or very nearly] recovered the entire Western Empire of the Romans, took ship at Ravenna and sailed for the Eastern capital.

    With the departure of Belisarius the courage of the Goths revived.  They still possessed Pavia, which was defended by a thousand warriors, and what was far more valuable, the unconquerable love of freedom.  TOTILA, a nephew of Vitiges, was called to the throne, and intrusted with the work of reestablishing the kingdom.  Of the Roman generals whom Belisarius left behind him in Italy, not one proved equal to the task of meeting the Goth in the field.  The latter traversed the country without opposition, marched through the heart of Italy, and compelled submission even to the extremes of Calabria.  He then pitched his camp before Rome, and with an impudence not devoid of truth invited the Senate to compare his reign with the tyranny of the Greek Empire.

    … Meanwhile Totila laid actual seige to Rome, and adopted starvation as his ally.

    … The beseiged were gradually reduced to the extremity of eating bread made of bran and devouring dogs, cats, and mice, to say nothing of dead horses and offal.  When Belisarius landed in Italy he made an ineffectual attempt to raise the seige of the city, and the Romans were then obliged to capitulate.  In the day of the surrender the barbarian in Totila asserted itself, and the city was given up to indiscriminate pillage….

    The Gothic king next directed his march into Southern Italy, where he overran Lucania and Apulia and quickly restored the Gothic supremacy as far as the strait of Messina.  Scarcely, however, had Totila departed upon his southern expedition when Belisarius, who had established himself in the port of Rome, sallied forth with extraordinary daring, and regained possession of the city.  He then exerted himself to the utmost to repair the defenses, and was so successful in this work that when, after twenty-five days, Totila returned from the South the Goths were repulsed in three successive assaults.  Nor did it appear impossible that with seasonable reinforcements from the East Belisarius might soon recover not only Rome but the whole of Italy.  To the message of his general, however, Justinian replied only after a long silence; and even then the order transmitted to the West was that Belisarius should retire into Lucania.  Thus paralyzed by the jealousy of the Emperor, the old veteran languished in the South, while the Goths regained the advantage.  In 549 they again beseiged and captured Rome….

    … [Belisarius] was succeeded in the command of the Roman army in the West by the eunuch NARSES, who in a body of contemptible stature concealed the spirit of a warrior.  The dispatch of Justinian recalling Belisarius had declared that the remnant of the Gothic war was no longer worthy of his presence.  It was this "remnant" [yes, Ridpath uses the quotes] that in the year 551 was entrusted to Narses.  His powers were ample and his genius sufficient for a greater work.  On arriving in Italy he made haste to bring matters to the crisis of battle.  On his way from Ravenna to Rome he became convinced that delay would be fatal to success.  On every side there were evidences of a counter-revolution in favor of the Goths.  It was evident that nothing but a victory could restore the influence of the Byzantine government in the West.  Advaning rapidly on the capital he met the Goths in the Flaminian Way, a short distance from the city.  Here, in July of 552, the fate of the kingdom established by Theodoric was yielded to the arbitrament of arms.  A fierce and obstinate conflict ensued in which Totila was slain and his army scattered to the winds.  Narses received the keys of Rome in the name of his master, this being the fifth time [the italic's are Ridpath's] that the Eternal City had been taken during the reign of Justinian.  The remanants of the Goths retired beyond the Po, where they assembled and chose TEIAS for their king.

    … In the year 553 Narses met this second army in battle and again routed the Goths and killed their king….  It was evident that the kingdom of the Goths was in the hour and article of death.

    … Here, in 554, the petty eunuch inflicted on the barbarians a defeat so decisive as to refix the status of Italy.  The greater part of the Gothic army perished either by the sword or in attempting to cross the river…

    …Thus, in the year 554, after a period of sixty years' duration, was subverted the Ostrogothic throne of Italy….

    If you don't wish to mark the bitter end of the Ostrogoths (554), but would rather mark the decisive battle, then according to Ridpath that would be 552.

    If you disagree and wish to say that other historians claim 538 at the decisive point, please give a soure for that.  Which historical book should I read to find that information?

    And don't worry I did read this all.  As it say Again routed the Goths, in every way the battle of Rome in 538 hurt the kingdom badly, they may have a show of force but their doom was inevitable.

    #52685

    emil
    Participant

    fromtheotherside wrote:

    exactly, they lost a big war, which was a turning point that they couldn't revive from.  With germany, they are still here because no body took over their country.  But the ostrogoths were dissolved that is the outcome.  

    It's the same thing with the point about alexander.  We preach that alexander's kingdom was divided in to four. but actually the end result is three, because one got conquered fairly quickly.  Also it wasn't from the begining either, if you read about the war of the diodite? Ithink that how you say it, it is very complicated, there were many wars and many divisions, it wasn't just a simple four way split.  

    The reason for this study is to determine the beast.  In my eyes, the Catholic Church fits the bill to the letter.  Even if you can make arguments about the Alexander or the 10 kingdoms.  It's the same with the sabbath or sunday, you guys say the truth will stands up to scruitny? But sunday does not stand up to scruitny it can be disputed and argued against, and also with the sabbath.  But one of them has to be the "truth" sunday or saturday.  Christmas is this truth? this can also be made a idol, and the feasts of God you guys argue it all the time. This is not to critisize Elie but, remember our Passsover debate, I brought arguments about her beliefs and she against mine in the end no one proved anything, then is she false? Am I false? There are people not from the COG that do believe in the Passover then are they false?  Everything can be argued even Jesus, The jews say hes not the messiah (by the way haven't seen hal here for a while) theirs people who argue he is just a prophet and not god. Everyone can bring out something to the table about anything in the bible.  

    You are displaying your prejudice. Come up with facts rather than SDA copy/paste

    fromtheotherside wrote:

    The point is, is that the only ones to change a lot of God's laws are the Catholics. They speak against God because they say they divine right to change anything in the bible,

    Your imagination is getting ahead of you. Who has changed anything in the bible? 

    fromtheotherside wrote:

    and they are the largest organization in the world. Sure there are others who speak against God, by saying they can do this and that also, but the catholic church is the only church that has lunchens with all the leaders around the world and has an influence in the world like no other.  So to me they fit all the characteristics of the beast. Inquistion they killed alot of christians, no other history like that. 

     

     

    Genny believes in the futurist view, But there view doesn't hold up any more then the historic view, not trying to put down Genny, but it doesn't.  My point is, is anything can be argued against.  But I still look at the catholics and see the points about the prophecy of the beast and see the similarites. 

    Oh so that's what's eating you?

    One could say that Revelation talks about the mark of the beast taking over the whole world. These days, Korean conglomerates like Samsung and LG have established leadership position with their brands world wide. Should we say the beast is Korean and he is getting bigger? I am not claiming this is fact. Just pointing out the ridculous basis of your argument.

    I suggest we should avoid passover and sabbath arguments in this thread. Lets stick to Daniel prophecies here.

    #52686

    emil
    Participant

    fromtheotherside wrote:

     

     

    And don't worry I did read this all.  As it say Again routed the Goths, in every way the battle of Rome in 538 hurt the kingdom badly, they may have a show of force but their doom was inevitable.

    And yet Ridpath says they were top of the charts by 549

    #52687

    fromtheotherside
    Participant

    Emil you are a fiesty one.  

     

    emil wrote:

    fromtheotherside wrote:

    exactly, they lost a big war, which was a turning point that they couldn't revive from.  With germany, they are still here because no body took over their country.  But the ostrogoths were dissolved that is the outcome.  

    It's the same thing with the point about alexander.  We preach that alexander's kingdom was divided in to four. but actually the end result is three, because one got conquered fairly quickly.  Also it wasn't from the begining either, if you read about the war of the diodite? Ithink that how you say it, it is very complicated, there were many wars and many divisions, it wasn't just a simple four way split.  

    The reason for this study is to determine the beast.  In my eyes, the Catholic Church fits the bill to the letter.  Even if you can make arguments about the Alexander or the 10 kingdoms.  It's the same with the sabbath or sunday, you guys say the truth will stands up to scruitny? But sunday does not stand up to scruitny it can be disputed and argued against, and also with the sabbath.  But one of them has to be the "truth" sunday or saturday.  Christmas is this truth? this can also be made a idol, and the feasts of God you guys argue it all the time. This is not to critisize Elie but, remember our Passsover debate, I brought arguments about her beliefs and she against mine in the end no one proved anything, then is she false? Am I false? There are people not from the COG that do believe in the Passover then are they false?  Everything can be argued even Jesus, The jews say hes not the messiah (by the way haven't seen hal here for a while) theirs people who argue he is just a prophet and not god. Everyone can bring out something to the table about anything in the bible.  

    You are displaying your prejudice. Come up with facts rather than SDA copy/paste

    Actually my words ^^  

    fromtheotherside wrote:

    The point is, is that the only ones to change a lot of God's laws are the Catholics. They speak against God because they say they divine right to change anything in the bible,

    Your imagination is getting ahead of you. Who has changed anything in the bible? 

    O you don't want to know, if I were to list all of them this site wouldn't be able to contain it all.  If you want to start look at their 10 commandments compared to the real bibles not their bible.  blessings saying "hail marry" "praying to Mary", common do you want to go there?

    fromtheotherside wrote:

    and they are the largest organization in the world. Sure there are others who speak against God, by saying they can do this and that also, but the catholic church is the only church that has lunchens with all the leaders around the world and has an influence in the world like no other.  So to me they fit all the characteristics of the beast. Inquistion they killed alot of christians, no other history like that. 

     

     

    Genny believes in the futurist view, But there view doesn't hold up any more then the historic view, not trying to put down Genny, but it doesn't.  My point is, is anything can be argued against.  But I still look at the catholics and see the points about the prophecy of the beast and see the similarites. 

    Oh so that's what's eating you?

    One could say that Revelation talks about the mark of the beast taking over the whole world. These days, Korean conglomerates like Samsung and LG have established leadership position with their brands world wide. Should we say the beast is Korean and he is getting bigger? I am not claiming this is fact. Just pointing out the ridculous basis of your argument.

    I suggest we should avoid passover and sabbath arguments in this thread. Lets stick to Daniel prophecies here.

    You are correct they are beasts, ferocious! But anyway you put it, they are the only ones who have all the qualities, LG and SAMSUNG didn't kill 100,000s of saint in the inquisition.  See no one else compares to them in the way they match up to the qualities of the beast in Dan and Rev.

    #52688

    genny
    Participant

    fromtheotherside wrote:

    Also the goths did show weakness after the loss of Rome.  Even to offer to make Belsarius emperor of Byzantine.  The wars after were mere revolts, that they were still defeated. 

    http://www.heritage-history.com/www/heritage.php?Dir=wars&FileName=wars_ostrogoths.php

    At any rate, They fit perfectly for the points of the beast.  Speak against God, Change his set times and laws, persecute gods saints. The beast in Revelations fit perfectly also.  Babylon, She sits on many waters, the whole world worships this beast because of her.   

    There is no doubt that the Catholic Church does fit, 

    I read your link.  Here's what it says,

    Although the Imperial army, led by Justinian's famous general Belisarius, had early victories—first taking Sicily, Rhegium, and Rome, and then two years later, taking Ravenna, the Gothic capital,—the Ostrogoths did not surrender. Instead they raised Totila, to the throne and renewed their offensive against the conquerors. Much of the territory that was taken by Belisarius, was retaken by Totila as soon as the former was recalled to Constantinople. Finally Justinian sent another army against the Ostrogoths, and finally destroyed them, but not until much of Italy had been laid to waste, and may of its major towns depopulated.

    Do you hear yourself saying that it was "mere revolts" (your words) that caused much of Italy to be "laid to waste" (your link's words)?

    Ridpath says that when Narses went to Rome about 551 that he realized "any delay would be fatal to success."  This means that despite early victories, the Romans (Byzantines) almost didn't win the whole war.  This is more that "mere revolts."  The Ostrogoths were not "destroyed" in 538 as the wmscog claims.

    About your comments concerning the Catholic Church… you may think they fit the description of an antichrist (which can be debated, I've seen both pros and cons for the Catholic Church), but that's different than their being THE Antichrist, the beast of Revelation and Daniel, which is what the wmscog teaches.  To fit the description of THE Antichrist (not just any antichrist) they have to match the prophecies about the 1260 days and 10 kingdoms.

    #52689

    fromtheotherside
    Participant

    genny wrote:

    fromtheotherside wrote:

    Also the goths did show weakness after the loss of Rome.  Even to offer to make Belsarius emperor of Byzantine.  The wars after were mere revolts, that they were still defeated. 

    http://www.heritage-history.com/www/heritage.php?Dir=wars&FileName=wars_ostrogoths.php

    At any rate, They fit perfectly for the points of the beast.  Speak against God, Change his set times and laws, persecute gods saints. The beast in Revelations fit perfectly also.  Babylon, She sits on many waters, the whole world worships this beast because of her.   

    There is no doubt that the Catholic Church does fit, 

    I read your link.  Here's what it says,

    Although the Imperial army, led by Justinian's famous general Belisarius, had early victories—first taking Sicily, Rhegium, and Rome, and then two years later, taking Ravenna, the Gothic capital,—the Ostrogoths did not surrender. Instead they raised Totila, to the throne and renewed their offensive against the conquerors. Much of the territory that was taken by Belisarius, was retaken by Totila as soon as the former was recalled to Constantinople. Finally Justinian sent another army against the Ostrogoths, and finally destroyed them, but not until much of Italy had been laid to waste, and may of its major towns depopulated.

    Do you hear yourself saying that it was "mere revolts" (your words) that caused much of Italy to be "laid to waste" (your link's words)?

    Ridpath says that when Narses went to Rome about 551 that he realized "any delay would be fatal to success."  This means that despite early victories, the Romans (Byzantines) almost didn't win the whole war.  This is more that "mere revolts."  The Ostrogoths were not "destroyed" in 538 as the wmscog claims.

    About your comments concerning the Catholic Church… you may think they fit the description of an antichrist (which can be debated, I've seen both pros and cons for the Catholic Church), but that's different than their being THE Antichrist, the beast of Revelation and Daniel, which is what the wmscog teaches.  To fit the description of THE Antichrist (not just any antichrist) they have to match the prophecies about the 1260 days and 10 kingdoms.

    Of course they would have Pros about them, or people wouldn't be fooled to believe in them and they wouldn't be able to lead people astray.  So your only argument is they don't have a date correct?  As I said all things can be debated, but the qualities of that Catholic Church fit perfectly, 

    Change god's laws and time, persecute his saints, speak against God, above many waters, leads the whole world astray, red and purple golden cup….. this is undisputable. 

    #52690

    emil
    Participant

    fromtheotherside wrote:

     

    Actually my words ^^  

    I am speaking about your basis for saying those words.

    fromtheotherside wrote:

     

    O you don't want to know, if I were to list all of them this site wouldn't be able to contain it all.  If you want to start look at their 10 commandments compared to the real bibles not their bible.  blessings saying "hail marry" "praying to Mary", common do you want to go there?

    Which Catholic bible did you read and find all that? You are quoting what you have been told not what you know from your own knowledge. I assure you that the wmscog member I know uses the Good News translation. There is no difference in the ten commandments verses as seen in any of the translations I have compared other than slight translation differences. This is a complete falsehood. Nor is there anything different about Mary.

     

    fromtheotherside wrote:

    You are correct they are beasts, ferocious! But anyway you put it, they are the only ones who have all the qualities, LG and SAMSUNG didn't kill 100,000s of saint in the inquisition.  See no one else compares to them in the way they match up to the qualities of the beast in Dan and Rev.

    That is your perception based on the other falsehoods which you believe. One of those we have already seen in the previous paragraph. 

    My statement was because you used the fact of the size of organization as proof.

    #52691

    genny
    Participant

    fromtheotherside wrote:

    Of course they would have Pros about them, or people wouldn't be fooled to believe in them and they wouldn't be able to lead people astray.  So your only argument is they don't have a date correct?  As I said all things can be debated, but the qualities of that Catholic Church fit perfectly, 

    Change god's laws and time, persecute his saints, speak against God, above many waters, leads the whole world astray, red and purple golden cup….. this is undisputable. 

    I could make a point that the wmscog changes God's laws and times, persecutes His saints, speaks against God, sits above many waters, leads the whole world astray…  I haven't seen the red and purple and golden cup, but I bet I could turn that into a spiritual interpretation that fits the wmscog…  Those things are more debateable and disputable than the historical record I'm bringing to your attention here.

    Would it matter to you if the date was incorrect?  And the 10 kingdoms not being as claimed?  Or would you still accept the teaching even with these errors?

Viewing 20 replies - 21 through 40 (of 387 total)
  • You must be logged in to reply to this topic.