Evidence regarding Antichrist and Daniel teachings

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  • #7118
    genny
    Participant

    In another thread, fromtheotherside, speaking of the materials presented againt the wmscog, said "none of your evidences speak for itself.  if you have such evidence present it without your explanation."

    I presented several 'evidences without explanation' there, but I think it would be a good idea to take each one separately into its own thread.  Here's the first one:

    Regarding the teaching of the Catholic Church being the Antichrist: the Ostrogoths were not destroyed in 538, the '10 kingdoms' from the Roman empire were not as the WMSCOG presents, 5 were destroyed not 3, and the destruction or survival of these 'kingdoms' did not depend on their following the Catholic Church.  These are historical, textbook facts.

    I originally did not link to my research about it, because fromtheotherside did not want explanation, but if you'd like to see the research, I've collected it here:

    http://encountering-ahnsahnghong.blogspot.com/2011/11/daniels-prophecy.html

    http://encountering-ahnsahnghong.blogspot.com/2011/08/is-666-pope-part-3.html

    fromtheotherside tried to answer this point but so far was unsuccessful.  I'll copy those pieces of the conversation here from the other thread, just to keep everything together.

  • #52652

    genny
    Participant

    fromtheotherside wrote:

    In regards to Genny's question 1. I don't have any idea what you're talking about, the kingdom was overthrown in 538, the ostrogoth people as a people and some risistance was left even after and they had small squirmishes here and there but in 538 their kingdom was conquered-overthrown, samething!

     The Ostrogoths. Ridpath dates the establishment of the Ostrogothic nation

    in 493,and its overthrow in 538, and its total destruction in 554. The

    following is from Ridpath's History of the World, Vol. IV, pp. 408-417:

    "Bishop Wulfila, or Ulfilas, labored for forty years among the Goths, and

    saw as the fruits of his labors the conversion of the entire people to the

    Arian branch of Christianity….The Ostrogoths had grown to be first in

    influence among the barbarian states….In religious faith Theodoric, like

    his people, was an Arian. This fact opened a chasm between the Goths and

    the Italians, the latter accepting the Nicene creed….Certain it is that

    Justinian, who had now succeeded to power at Constantinople, resolved to

    purge the church of heresy as well in the West as in his paternal domin-

    ions." The agent of the emperor in the extermination of heresy was Belisar-

    ius who had destroyed the Vandal nation.

    The Nation Destroyed. "Nearly the whole Gothic nation gathered around the

    Eternal City; but Belisarius held out until reenforcements arrived from the

    East, and after a siege of a year and nine days' duration, Rome was deliv-

    ered from the clutch of her assailants. Vitiges (the Ostrogothic leader)

    was obliged to burn his tents and retreat (538) before his pursuing antag-

    onist to Ravena….It was evident that the kingdom of the Goths was in the

    hour and article of death." Speaking of the final defeat of the Goths in

    [538?] Ridpath says that there was "inflicted on the barbarians a defeat so

    decisive as to refix the status of Italy. The greater part of the Gothic

    army perished either by the sword or in attempting to cross the river…As

    for the Goths, they either retired to their native seats beyond the moun-

    tains or were absorbed by the Italians."–Id. In chapter 41 of Gibbon's

    Roman Empire is a graphic description of the campaigns of Belisarius

    against the Vandals and Ostrogoths resulting in their defeat and overthrow.

    Thus the three Arian nations who refused to renounce their heretical faith

    were uprooted or subdued and the other Arian peoples turned orthodox leav-

    ing the bishop of Rome the undisputed ruler of nations and the corrector

    of heretics. How completely the prophecy was fulfilled .

    Reposted from https://www.examiningthewmscog.com/forum/topic.php?id=4486

    #52653

    genny
    Participant

    Elievalkyrie wrote:

    As I have understand from wmscog's teachings, it was the "Little Horn", which they claim as the Papacy to uproot or destroy the three nations, which are the: Vandals, Ostrogoths and Heruli, is this correct? But this source stated that it was Belisarius who was the one to destroy the Ostrogoths under the command of Emperor Justinian who wanted to conquer back the Roman Empire. 

    Also, it was stated in this website (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heruli#Independent_Kingdom_and_later_years) that the Heruli was destroyed by the Lombards (another tribe), the Papacy was not mentioned.

    Reposted from https://www.examiningthewmscog.com/forum/topic.php?id=4486&page=2

    #52654

    genny
    Participant

    genny wrote:

    Since you trust Ridpath, I will use that book also.  To read about the end of the Ostrogothic kingdom, you would start at the bottom of page 413 when Belisarius enters Italy.

    Now see where you quoted this: "Vitiges (the Ostrogothic leader)

    was obliged to burn his tents and retreat (538) before his pursuing antag-

    onist to Ravena….It was evident that the kingdom of the Goths was in the

    hour and article of death."

    The first part of that quote is on page 414 and it is in 538, but the second part (after the "…" ) is on page 417 and it is in the year 553.  That's what I would call clever quoting, making it sound like your whole quote is about the year 538, when it is not.

    Your other quote says: "Speaking of the final defeat of the Goths in

    [538?] Ridpath says that there was "inflicted on the barbarians a defeat so

    decisive as to refix the status of Italy. The greater part of the Gothic

    army perished either by the sword or in attempting to cross the river…As

    for the Goths, they either retired to their native seats beyond the moun-

    tains or were absorbed by the Italians.""

    Your insert of "[538?]" before the quote shows that you either don't have the actual book to refer to, or you are deliberately trying to make us think this was in 538.  Here's what the full sentence in the book (page 417) says:

    "Here, in 554, the petty eunuch inflicted on the barbarians a defeat so decisive as to refix the status of Italy."

    And then in the next paragraph, "Thus, in the year 554, after a period of sixty years' duration, was subverted the Ostrogothic throne of Italy."

    You see, in 538, Belisrius almost destroyed the Ostrogoths, but not quite.  They regrouped and fought back, and they fought so hard that it it took until 554 to finally defeat them.  It was not some "small resistance" and "skirmishes here and there."

    When the WMSCOG talks dates for the defeat of the Heruli and the Vandals, they use the dates given in history books for the end of those wars.  But not so with the Ostrogoths.  They use a different date to fit their purposes, but it is not an accurate date.

    I haven't talked yet about your point regarding Arianism.  But I think I've said enough for right now.

    Reposted from https://www.examiningthewmscog.com/forum/topic.php?id=4486&page=2

    #52655

    genny
    Participant

    genny wrote:

    fromtheotherside wrote:

    In chapter 41 of Gibbon's

    Roman Empire is a graphic description of the campaigns of Belisarius

    against the Vandals and Ostrogoths resulting in their defeat and overthrow.

    Thus the three Arian nations who refused to renounce their heretical faith

    were uprooted or subdued and the other Arian peoples turned orthodox leav-

    ing the bishop of Rome the undisputed ruler of nations and the corrector

    of heretics. How completely the prophecy was fulfilled .

     

    Hi fromtheotherside.  I'm back to address the other portion of your point, about Arianism.  When you say, "the three Arian nations who refused to renounce their heretical faith were uprooted or subdued and the other Arian peoples turned orthodox leaving the bishop of Rome the undisputed ruler of nations and the corrector of heretics."

    You imply that the Catholic Church destroyed those three kingdoms because they were heretics, and that they did not destroy any of the other kingdoms because they agreed with the Catholic Church or converted quickly (soon after 538) to aviod being conquered.  Here's what you should know about the other 7 kingdoms on the WMCSOG's list:

    Visigoths–transitioned from Arianism to Catholicism between 577-584.  Conquered in 711 when they were Catholic.

    Anglo-Saxons–Pagan until the 7th century.  Not conquered until 1066.

    Franks–became Catholic in 496, not conquered.

    Alemanni–became Christian in the 7th century. Conquered in 496 by the Franks, but not counted as one of the conquered kingdoms by the WMSCOG.

    Burgundians–transitioning to Catholicism when they were conquered by the Catholic Franks in 534.  Also not counted as a conquered kingdom by the WMSCOG.

    Lombards–did not even enter the Roman Empire's territory until the 540s, and kingdom not established there until 572.  Mixed in religion, but did not become mostly Catholic until the late 7th century.

    Suevi–converted to Catholicism in the 560s but became part of the Visigoths in 585.

    The only ones that fit the WMSCOG model are the Franks and maybe the Suevi.  The other 5 don't fit.  They were either conquered but not counted as conquered (since the WMSCOG only wants to count 3), or not conquered even though they remained "heretics," or conquered even though they were Catholic, or not even in the right place at the right time.

    Reposted from https://www.examiningthewmscog.com/forum/topic.php?id=4486&page=2

    #52656

    genny
    Participant

    genny wrote:

    fromtheotherside, remember those quotes you had from Ridpath that were so dreadfully out of context?  Well, I now realize that you did not do that quoting from the book yourself.  You copied it from 7th Day Adventist author Taylor G. Bunch.  When that book came out in 1950, it may have been hard for readers to find the book and verify the quotes for themselves.  But here in the internet age we have a lot more resources available to us.  I hope you have learned your lesson about doing your own research.

    I am still waiting for a response about this.  I hope the delay is because you are now doing your own research and trying to find real evidence for your case.

    Reposted from https://www.examiningthewmscog.com/forum/topic.php?id=4486&page=2

    #52657

    genny
    Participant

    This topic is open for discussion.

    Maybe you have some input, WMS brother?

    #52658

    genny
    Participant

    People fact-check political speeches, like the President's State of the Union speech he just gave.

    WMSCOG members, have you fact-checked the information being given to you?  They have historical "facts" that don't check out!

    Don't sweep these things under the rug because they are "not important to your salvation"!  They are important!  They reveal that the ones you worship as gods aren't really gods.

    #52659

    Elievalkyrie
    Participant

    Genny, my head is bursting with all the overwhelming info's you gave. lol! You really do your research well. Let me give you my praise for that. ^__^

    #52660

    genny
    Participant

    Thanks Elie. 🙂 I'll gladly pass that praise along to God who helped me find everything. 

    Still haven't heard any proper explanation from any wmscog member.

    #52661

    genny
    Participant

    Still waiting…

    #52662

    fromtheotherside
    Participant

    Dan 2: 39-43  After you > ( 1. who is this)  another kingdom will arise inferior to yours> (2.) Next, a third Kingdom, one of Bronze, will rule over the whole earth >(3.)  Finaly a fourth kingdom>(4)  strong as iron

    1.

    2.

    3.

    4.

    then can you give me the answer to the 4 kingdoms?

    #52663

    fromtheotherside
    Participant

    if you know the 4th kingdom then that's the answer.  so if you don't agree it's rome then what is it?

    #52664

    Love'n Honey
    Participant

    some say it's the usa

    #52665

    genny
    Participant

    fromtheotherside wrote:

    Dan 2: 39-43  After you > ( 1. who is this)  another kingdom will arise inferior to yours> (2.) Next, a third Kingdom, one of Bronze, will rule over the whole earth >(3.)  Finaly a fourth kingdom>(4)  strong as iron

    1.

    2.

    3.

    4.

    then can you give me the answer to the 4 kingdoms?

    I have studied Daniel with my own church (besides with the wmscog) and I agree that the kingdoms are:

    1.Babylonian Empire

    2.Medo-Persian Empire

    3. Greek Empire

    4. Roman Empire

    (though there are some who divide the Medes and the Persians and make the Greek Empire the fourth.)

    Are you leading up to an explanation for the historical mistakes with the year 538 and the 10 kingdoms?

    #52666

    Love'n Honey
    Participant

    yes, please explain why 538 was chosen.

    #52667

    fromtheotherside
    Participant

    then do you agree the 4 kingdoms in dan2 are the four beasts in dan 7?

    #52668

    genny
    Participant

    fromtheotherside wrote:

    then do you agree the 4 kingdoms in dan2 are the four beasts in dan 7?

    There are a couple possibilities, summarized here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_7

    I lean toward the futurist view.

    But for the sake of argument, I'll go along with whatever your theory is for now.  Please explain whatever you wish to explain about this.

    #52669

    fromtheotherside
    Participant

    So then can you tell me in according to your futurist view, what are the 10 kingdoms.

    #52670

    fromtheotherside
    Participant

    either way you look at it, the fourth beast is rome you agree right, I think that was part of the futurist view on the subject

    #52671

    genny
    Participant

    With a futurist view, the 10 kindgoms bit hasn't been revealed yet, though I've heard some speculate that it could be connected with the European Union.

    But why don't you continue explaining the 10 kingdoms according to the wmscog view (or your own view if it's different, just please specify which you are explaining then or I'll assume they are the same).

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