[genny]

In another thread, fromtheotherside, speaking of the materials presented againt the wmscog, said "none of your evidences speak for itself.  if you have such evidence present it without your explanation."

I presented several 'evidences without explanation' there, but I think it would be a good idea to take each one separately into its own thread.  Here's the first one:

Regarding the teaching of the Catholic Church being the Antichrist: the Ostrogoths were not destroyed in 538, the '10 kingdoms' from the Roman empire were not as the WMSCOG presents, 5 were destroyed not 3, and the destruction or survival of these 'kingdoms' did not depend on their following the Catholic Church.  These are historical, textbook facts.

I originally did not link to my research about it, because fromtheotherside did not want explanation, but if you'd like to see the research, I've collected it here:

http://encountering-ahnsahnghong.blogspot.com/2011/11/daniels-prophecy.html

http://encountering-ahnsahnghong.blogspot.com/2011/08/is-666-pope-part-3.html

fromtheotherside tried to answer this point but so far was unsuccessful.  I'll copy those pieces of the conversation here from the other thread, just to keep everything together.

[KF]

[KF]

fromtheotherside wrote:

Is not "hail marry" a catholic thing? do they do it or not? If they do then it's adding, even if they didn't actually write it in the bible, it's adding.  So if it's not a catholic thing then I'm mistaken.  So you tell me.  Do catholics do it or not?  

 Yes FTOS,  I agree! anything outside the bible is adding.  Which brings me to question you, why does your church use the prayer of our wishes, instead of OUR FATHER IN HEAVEN, as Jesus said.????

[fromtheotherside]

"hail marry" is not the only thing but insince you want to talk about that.  

So your question is why does the little horn come in verse 8 and then why does the son of man come in verse13?

Verse 13 is about christ.  Prophecies aren't always spoken in order.  and this one is clearly show that way too.

verse 11 and 12 show the beast being slain and thrown in the lake of fire.  that means the distruction of the earth and judgment of the devil or the beast had already taken place.  and then it speaks about the son of man.  If going by your view of this being events in order then even if you said verse 13 is the second coming or coming to Judge or judgement day it wouldn't fit because all that had already taken place in verses 11 and 12.  

So this is not shown in order of events.  

Prophecies aren't always shown in order and revelations is a great example of that.

[fromtheotherside]

@ KF  Was there a new testament when Jesus was on the earth?  Then what do you think Jesus were to say, or even his diciples would say, if a Jew came up to them and said, "why do you teach to use father in heaven when that is not in the bible?"

[fromtheotherside]

We should do what God commands KF ^^

[KF]

fromtheotherside wrote:

Was there a new testament when Jesus was on the earth?  Then what do you think Jesus were to say, or even his diciples would say, if a Jew came up to them and said, "why do you teach to use father in heaven when that is not in the bible?"

 No there was no new testament, ok kind of makes sense, but the bible is already written from beginning to end so we must follow what's in it.  In this generation we can read it all. there is not going to be a 3rd part to it.

 however it was not the age of the HOLY SPIRIT,{ as wms says the age of the Holy Spirit is now}, yet Jesus said

Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

 

If the name of the father was Jehovah and the name of the son Jesus, then what was the name of the Holy Spirit????

My point is what name did they use for the Holy Spirit back then? It's not in the bible. 

And why in the book of  revelation everyone will praise JEHOVAH. 

[fromtheotherside]

Can you tell me about the revelation part and praising Jehovah?  I'm not sure where you're exactly talking about KF.

[fromtheotherside]

Actually i don't have the answer for that one, please don't think I have all the answers for our church because then I would be a pastor. ^^ but pls tell me about what you said in revelations.

[KF]

fromtheotherside wrote:

Can you tell me about the revelation part and praising Jehovah?  I'm not sure where you're exactly talking about KF.

  

1. Revelation 19:1

    

    

   [ Threefold Hallelujah Over Babylon’s Fall ] After this I heard what sounded like the roar of a great multitude in heaven shouting:“Hallelujah! Salvation and glory and power belong to our God,

   Revelation 19:1-3 (in Context) Revelation 19 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations

2. Revelation 19:3

   And again they shouted:“Hallelujah! The smoke from her goes up for ever and ever.”

   Revelation 19:2-4 (in Context) Revelation 19 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations

3. Revelation 19:4

   The twenty-four elders and the four living creatures fell down and worshiped God, who was seated on the throne. And they cried:“Amen, Hallelujah!”

   Revelation 19:3-5 (in Context) Revelation 19 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations

4. Revelation 19:6

   Then I heard what sounded like a great multitude, like the roar of rushing waters and like loud peals of thunder, shouting:“Hallelujah! For our Lord God Almighty reigns.

   Revelation 19:5-7 (in Context) Revelation 19 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations

 

 

The Meaning Of Hallelujah

“Hallelujah” is a word known worldwide,  but many don’t really know exactly what it means.     If we’re going to use this word,  it would be good to use it rightly.    

It is two Hebrew words put together.     “Hallel“  means to praise,  to boast in,  to shine forth,  to be worthy of praise, and to be commended.     “Jah” is a shortened form of “Jehovah“,  which means the Self-Existent and Eternal One.     Jehovah is the name of the LORD which emphasizes that God Almighty has no beginning or end.     He always has been and He always will be LORD God Almighty.     There simply is none greater.

When we put the two words together,  we are praising the LORD  with all our being,  because He alone  is worthy  of being praised  for all the great things He has done and continues to do.     When we separate the two words, they are translated “Praise the LORD“.     If we see the Greek form of the word, we will see “Alleluia“.     It means the very same thing.

 

 

[Hebrew <tt>halllû-yh</tt>, praise Yahweh : <tt>halllû</tt>, masculine pl. imperative of <tt>hilll</tt>, to praise; see <tt>hll</tt> in Semitic roots + <tt>yh</tt>, Yahweh; see <tt>hwy</tt> in Semitic roots.]

[KF]

@FTOS don't forget about the Holy Spirit question.

[KF]

@FTOS I moved our conversation to "REVELATION & HALLELUJAH, PLEASE CONTINUE OUR CONVERSATION OVER THERE, THERE ARE TOO MANY CONVERSATIONS HERE ALREADY AND I'M JUST ADDING SOMETHING THAT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE TOPIC.  SORRY GUYS,  THANKS!

[KF]

@FTOS I moved our conversation to "REVELATION & HALLELUJAH, PLEASE CONTINUE OUR CONVERSATION OVER THERE, THERE ARE TOO MANY CONVERSATIONS HERE ALREADY AND I'M JUST ADDING SOMETHING THAT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE TOPIC.  SORRY GUYS,  THANKS!

[fromtheotherside]

KF wrote:

@FTOS don't forget about the Holy Spirit question.

 

fromtheotherside wrote:

Actually i don't have the answer for that one, please don't think I have all the answers for our church because then I would be a pastor. ^^ but pls tell me about what you said in revelations.

[fromtheotherside]

KF wrote:

@FTOS don't forget about the Holy Spirit question.

 

fromtheotherside wrote:

Actually i don't have the answer for that one, please don't think I have all the answers for our church because then I would be a pastor. ^^ but pls tell me about what you said in revelations.

[emil]

You stated that the catholics made changes like "hail marry" to the bible. They were your words not mine. So now do you withdraw your original statement as false?

You said the catholics have bibles with different 10 commandments. I suggest you should actually take a look at what you call a catholic bible and see if the things you have been told are true. One more lie exposed. But then again, if you argue that is is fine to lie for a "good" cause, then I have nothing more to say about that.

 

[emil]

You stated that the catholics made changes like "hail marry" to the bible. They were your words not mine. So now do you withdraw your original statement as false?

You said the catholics have bibles with different 10 commandments. I suggest you should actually take a look at what you call a catholic bible and see if the things you have been told are true. One more lie exposed. But then again, if you argue that is is fine to lie for a "good" cause, then I have nothing more to say about that.

 

[emil]

fromtheotherside wrote:

So your question is why does the little horn come in verse 8 and then why does the son of man come in verse13?

Verse 13 is about christ.  Prophecies aren't always spoken in order.  and this one is clearly show that way too.

verse 11 and 12 show the beast being slain and thrown in the lake of fire.  that means the distruction of the earth and judgment of the devil or the beast had already taken place.  and then it speaks about the son of man.  If going by your view of this being events in order then even if you said verse 13 is the second coming or coming to Judge or judgement day it wouldn't fit because all that had already taken place in verses 11 and 12.  

So this is not shown in order of events.  

Prophecies aren't always shown in order and revelations is a great example of that.

Look at the words used in the chapter. It clearly describes a sequence all the way upto the point where the vision is explained. If you conveniently reject the verses 13-14 as being out of sequence, why does your whole interpretation hinge on the sequence of all the preceeding verses?

Please do not assume what is my view of events aside from the fact that they are in order. I am not assuming anything about the 2nd coming or judgement day. You must explain why you think only those verses are out of sequence when the author clearly puts them as sequential events in the way he words the start of his setences.

[emil]

fromtheotherside wrote:

So your question is why does the little horn come in verse 8 and then why does the son of man come in verse13?

Verse 13 is about christ.  Prophecies aren't always spoken in order.  and this one is clearly show that way too.

verse 11 and 12 show the beast being slain and thrown in the lake of fire.  that means the distruction of the earth and judgment of the devil or the beast had already taken place.  and then it speaks about the son of man.  If going by your view of this being events in order then even if you said verse 13 is the second coming or coming to Judge or judgement day it wouldn't fit because all that had already taken place in verses 11 and 12.  

So this is not shown in order of events.  

Prophecies aren't always shown in order and revelations is a great example of that.

Look at the words used in the chapter. It clearly describes a sequence all the way upto the point where the vision is explained. If you conveniently reject the verses 13-14 as being out of sequence, why does your whole interpretation hinge on the sequence of all the preceeding verses?

Please do not assume what is my view of events aside from the fact that they are in order. I am not assuming anything about the 2nd coming or judgement day. You must explain why you think only those verses are out of sequence when the author clearly puts them as sequential events in the way he words the start of his setences.

[fromtheotherside]

yea look carefully at 11 and 12 you choose not to answer about that.  How would i be "rejecting verses 13-14? it is out of sequence prove its not. and why would our interpretation "hinge" on only the preceeding verses it "hinges" on all the verses.

[fromtheotherside]

emil wrote:

You stated that the catholics made changes like "hail marry" to the bible. They were your words not mine. So now do you withdraw your original statement as false?

You said the catholics have bibles with different 10 commandments. I suggest you should actually take a look at what you call a catholic bible and see if the things you have been told are true. One more lie exposed. But then again, if you argue that is is fine to lie for a "good" cause, then I have nothing more to say about that.

adding is changing, you don't have to physically change a word in the bible to change it.  your words change it also.  and you choose not to answer my question do they say "hail marry" or not?

[fromtheotherside]

Catholic 10 commandments:

 

 I, the Lord, am your God. You shall not have other gods besides me.

2.     You shall not take the name of the Lord God in vain

3.     Remember to keep holy the Lord's Day

4.     Honor your father and your mother

5.     You shall not kill

6.     You shall not commit adultery

7.     You shall not steal

8.     You shall not bear false witness

9.     You shall not covet your neighbor's wife

10. You shall not covet your neighbor's goods

 

Original OT 10 commandments

1   You shall have no other gods but me.

 

2.     You shall not make unto you any graven images

3.     You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain

4.     You shall remember the Sabbath and keep it holy

5.     Honor your mother and father

6.     You shall not murder

7.     You shall not commit adultery

8.     You shall not steal

9.     You shall not bear false witness

10. You shall not covet anything that belongs to your neighbor

 

Mainly my point of the change is the sabbath, The others are just a matter of Grouping.The catholic church chose to change "sabbath" to "lords day" because they chose to worship on sunday, not saturday and that is why they changed it.

 

Catechism of the catholic church

2191 The Church celebrates the day of Christ's Resurrection on the "eighth day," Sunday, which is rightly called the Lord's Day (cf. SC 106).