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Just to add to genny's statement, I would like to state that you really do avoid giving direct answers to questions, FTOS. Like the time when I ask you in another forum:
"The laws I am talking about here pertains to ALL the laws, this includes the Passover, the Festivals and the 5 different Offerings. So you are saying Jesus fulfilled all of these when He died on the cross? I think I just require a yes or no answer to this one, i'll just wait for your answer."
And you just answered: "you can find your answer if you read the book of hebrews, and understand it."
And when I asked again, you didn't answer in your next comment. So you can see why I have reached the conclusion you are avoiding in giving direct answers.
genny wrote:
The Bible doesn't speak against it? It doesn't use the word "abortion" but it definitely speaks about murder, and about babies in the womb.
Let me give the bible verse for your statement Genny ^__^
This is from Psalms 139:13-16 “For You formed my inward parts…You covered me in my mother’s womb… for I am fearfully and wonderfully made…My frame was not hidden from You, when I was made in secret…Your eyes saw my substance, being yet unformed… And in Your book they all were written, the days fashioned for me, when as yet there were none of them."
God’s involvement in life begins at the moment of conception when we are yet unformed. Doesn't this mean anything to the wmscog?
Thanks Elie. I had that verse in mind, and there are also these: Job 31:15; Psalm 51:6; Ecc. 11:5; Isaiah 44:2&24; Isaiah 49:1-5; Jeremiah 1:5; Jeremiah 20:17; Hosea 12:3; Luke 1:41-44
Genny wrote; But you've answered that question–<em style=”margin: 0px; padding: 0px; font-family: ‘Trebuchet MS’, ‘Lucida Grande’, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial; font-size: 14px; line-height: 22px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);”>The wmscog teaches that God approves of abortion.
Don't start puting words in my mouth Genny and start spreading lies construed by your own thoughts AGAIN like you do in this website! We don't oppose it just as the bible does not. Doesn't mean we approve. Two different things. You can find that abortions were a common thing even in those days! Yet the bible strangly does not comment on the matter. Also you can argue than did God want Abraham to commit MURDER, when he ask for him to slay and offer his own son as a sacrifice? God said he wanted to test Abraham, and when Abraham was going to go through with it he was even rewarded more greatly for his obedience. But did God say I will reward Isaach for be obedient and not saying a word when his father was about to murder him. You can come to a conclusion that in the bible children are considered even property of parents.
Even suduction of a virgin is like theft to the parents.
If a man seduces a virgin for whom the bride-price has not been
paid, and lies with her, he must make her his wife by payment of a
bride-price. If her father refuses to give her to him, he must still
weigh out silver in accordance with the bride-price for virgins (Ex.
22:15-16).
Likewise, the rape of a virgin is considered an economic loss to her father not to the virgin herself.
If a man comes upon a virgin who is not engaged and he seizes her
and lies with her, and they are discovered, the man who lay with
her shall pay the girl’s father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be
his wife (Deut. 22:28-29).
So I think the reason why it doesn't talk about abortion is because children ar the property of the parents, and they have all rights. And genny I hope you don't try to LIE again and say this is wmscog teaching because this is my own beliefs that I came up with. okay lets try to have an honest character.
The bible doesn't condone to KILLIING of these so-called "properties" FTOS. And that's what you do when you do abortion. You kill an innocent life or you could even say soon-to-be life whom God have created. Even though the bible doesn't exactly state that you shouldn't ABORT, the fact that after the deed, most of the parents are guilt-ridden. Their conscience bothers them and most confess to having a difficult time sleeping just thinking about it. Losing a child accidentally makes a parent feel awful, but losing a child deliberately, how do you think that would feel?
Your answers really does confirm what Ron Ramos said about wmscog. It's not what you say, it's what you DON'T say. If a member wanted to go through abortion, you stay silent. You wash your hands of it, just like what Pontius Pilate did. You could have said something to discourage them from doing it but you do nothing and your silence or even when you say "That's your choice" eventually encourage that member to do it because she trusted you, you and your pastors and Zhang, that what she is doing is right and all the while feeling guilty because of it. Sometimes, you don't have to READ the bible to know what's right or not, you should try to listen sometimes to what your conscience tells you.
fromtheotherside wrote:
You can find that abortions were a common thing even in those days! Yet the bible strangly does not comment on the matter. Also you can argue than did God want Abraham to commit MURDER, when he ask for him to slay and offer his own son as a sacrifice? God said he wanted to test Abraham, and when Abraham was going to go through with it he was even rewarded more greatly for his obedience.
Can you back up your statement which I have highlighted?
God may have ordered Abraham to slay his son Isaac to test him but God did stop him from the murder eventually. So it is quite clear it was a test of faith. It is a bad example.
You could perhaps have offered examples of times when God actually commanded killing and went through with it but it was in the context of war.
elie said, “the bible doesnt condone killing of those properties”. so this is why it is wrong r u saying? well your taking my argument that because the bible does not go against it and your just flipping it around so if you think my argument does not hold up then yours doesnt either. The goal of discussing this topic is not about feelings its about or it should be about as should all topics be about is it a sin does it effect us going to heaven which is the goal of our faith the salvation of our souls (qouted from the bible). so u think it better to lie nn say the bible is against it??? when that is not provable??? Also it IS the choice of a women! She has every right to abort or to keep it. A major decision in person life should not be “discouraged” influenced because of your personal beliefs id like to point out there r millions of women who dont hold ure views!
emil So even though, according to your thoughts, god is against “murdering” as you put it its okay to to make abraham believe its okay to do it just to test him? because abraham is thinking its okay to murder his son because god wants it, isnt that misleading wouldnt u say its almost a lie then according to your interpretation of the event emil??? oh so insince god stopped him its okay?? so what happened to you guys oppossing “the end does not justify” your arguments r starting to become hypocritical of how u guys dispute the church of god.
Elievalkyrie wrote:
The Secret of the Forgiveness of Sins? I didn't know God have some kind of a secret just to forgive sins, that really sounds weird.
Giving forgiveness wasn't the secret. The secret was why we needed his forgiveness. Why did God have to pay such a big price for our sin. The "secret" was that we attempted to overthrow God in heaven which is why we are on earth. It's like being bailed out of jail but not knowing why you were in jail in the 1st place. That study revealed why we were in jail to begin with.
fromtheotherside wrote:
elie said, "the bible doesnt condone killing of those properties". so this is why it is wrong r u saying? well your taking my argument that because the bible does not go against it and your just flipping it around so if you think my argument does not hold up then yours doesnt either. The goal of discussing this topic is not about feelings its about or it should be about as should all topics be about is it a sin does it effect us going to heaven which is the goal of our faith the salvation of our souls (qouted from the bible). so u think it better to lie nn say the bible is against it??? when that is not provable??? Also it IS the choice of a women! She has every right to abort or to keep it. A major decision in person life should not be "discouraged" influenced because of your personal beliefs id like to point out there r millions of women who dont hold ure views!
emil So even though, according to your thoughts, god is against "murdering" as you put it its okay to to make abraham believe its okay to do it just to test him? because abraham is thinking its okay to murder his son because god wants it, isnt that misleading wouldnt u say its almost a lie then according to your interpretation of the event emil??? oh so insince god stopped him its okay?? so what happened to you guys oppossing "the end does not justify" your arguments r starting to become hypocritical of how u guys dispute the church of god.
I had a huge problem with God's laws and what God orders us to do. I questioned my Missionary about the law "Thou shalt not murder". However, God has sent numerous people to kill others without following the rules in Dt. If someone disobeyed God's laws or cheated or murdered someone then they would be put to death. All the rules say after someone has done something bad, they shall be put to death. I haven't seen a rule that says when someone is/n't about to do something wrong, they can be put to death. Isaac hadn't done anything and wasn't going to do anything worthy of death and yet God ordered Abram to kill him. If Abram had questioned God, he would be wrong. But if he would've killed Isaac, he would have been wrong which is why I think God stopped him.
fromtheotherside wrote:
Genny wrote; But you've answered that question–The wmscog teaches that God approves of abortion.
Don't start puting words in my mouth Genny and start spreading lies construed by your own thoughts AGAIN like you do in this website! We don't oppose it just as the bible does not. Doesn't mean we approve. Two different things.
…
So I think the reason why it doesn't talk about abortion is because children ar the property of the parents, and they have all rights. And genny I hope you don't try to LIE again and say this is wmscog teaching because this is my own beliefs that I came up with. okay lets try to have an honest character.
Lies? No! Misunderstanding? Maybe. If so, then set me straight. Maybe you just don't like seeing your meaning expressed in a direct way?
Active listening skills include rephrasing what you think you heard so that the speaker can tell you if you misunderstood. That's what I do.
You say there is a difference between not opposing (letting someone choose) and approving. No, not really. If I set two bowls in front of my child for dinner, one with soup and one with ice cream, and say "You can choose which one you want. I'm not opposed to you having ice cream for dinner tonight." That has the same meaning as saying "I approve if you choose soup, and I also approve if you choose ice cream."
From the information you gave, I concluded, "The wmscog teaches that God approves of abortion."
You say that is a lie? Then is the correct statement, "The wmscog teaches that God does not approve of abortion"?
Or since you now say you are speaking of your own beliefs and not wmscog teaching, maybe this a summary should be this, "I don't know what the wmscog teaches, but I believe God approves of abortion"? If that's the better statement, then why don't you know what the wmscog teaches about this? Why don't you find out?
Oppose means to disapprove. An antonym is favor. Is God doesn't oppose abortions that means God favors abortions. Now, indifferent means neither oppose nor favor. Which of these words best describes God's point of view on abortions?
QUESTION FOR :
fromtheotherside
IS IT TRUE THAT ISAAC WAS GOD IN THE FLESH?
Regarding Abortion it is commanded in cases of suspected unproven adultery in numbers 5
Simon wrote:
Regarding Abortion it is commanded in cases of suspected unproven adultery in numbers 5
A test is commanded in Numbers 5 for a woman accused of adultery. Only if the woman is guilty will the test give her a 'curse.' The literal words that describe the curse are that her thigh would rot or waste and that her abdomen would swell. I suppose a miscarriage might result, but that's not exactly what it says.
NIV says it means miscarraige as part of it
and many who don't use NIV believe that as part of the interpretation
Dear fromtheotherside,
I have realized that I was not very tactful when I wrote to you earlier and you responded by calling me a liar. I am sorry for responding to you harshly and in a way that would make you upset enough to accuse me so. Please forgive me for that.
Hope you will be back again sometime soon.
Nice one, Genny.
renita.payno wrote:
Elievalkyrie wrote:
The Secret of the Forgiveness of Sins? I didn't know God have some kind of a secret just to forgive sins, that really sounds weird.
Giving forgiveness wasn't the secret. The secret was why we needed his forgiveness. Why did God have to pay such a big price for our sin. The "secret" was that we attempted to overthrow God in heaven which is why we are on earth. It's like being bailed out of jail but not knowing why you were in jail in the 1st place. That study revealed why we were in jail to begin with.
So what biblical verse did they provide to explain all of this? This seems such a big story, I doubt the bible contains the story about it unless they "put" things that weren't there in the "holes" of the biblical verse.
For example, the bible said in this verse: "For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God". Then the wmscog says, "See, the bible said that Satan tried to kill God" But if you read the verse carefully, Satan didn't TRY to kill God, it was just said that He wanted to be like God. Saying that he tried to kill God is an assumption of what happened when it wasn't exactly stated that way. This way, holes in the story can be filled and you can create your own "situation" of what happened without the bible truthfully backing it up.
genny wrote:
Simon wrote:
Regarding Abortion it is commanded in cases of suspected unproven adultery in numbers 5
A test is commanded in Numbers 5 for a woman accused of adultery. Only if the woman is guilty will the test give her a 'curse.' The literal words that describe the curse are that her thigh would rot or waste and that her abdomen would swell. I suppose a miscarriage might result, but that's not exactly what it says.
I thought this would just make a woman barren and unable to have a child. It was not stated that she was pregnant before the rotting or the wasting happens, so it can be said that it would happen even though she was not pregnant which means it cannot be miscarriage.
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