- Topic
When anecdotes rule the day, Questioninginla challenges your thought. It appears that the people on this forum are able to think critically. I found the following two videos to present nothing more than mere anecdotes, and when analyzed, actually provide more support for Ron, Diane, and Steve than the videos ultimately discredit, one just has to dig deeper and analyze in order to come to that conclusion.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zYhBwfmfIq0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FqWMSgrU9rA (addressed later in a separate post within this thread)
Video 1 begins with the “if you try to please everyone you will end up losing your ass (used in context with the animal, with double entendre for humour)” parable. “The True WMSCOG” emphasizes the influence people/groups of people have upon individuals. So, anyone within this or any church is now free to analyze how the influence of the masses affects him/herself. I may suggest a few questions to ask:
When I first started attending how many people sat in for my bible studies? Did this have influence on me?
Is my suit & tie dressing up for God or have I conformed to a dress code?
Have I changed my hair styles, behaviors, attitudes, habits, etc. to conform to the group?
Have I just deferred to a list of rules from the Bible to justify my answers to the above? If so, from whom did I learn this list of rules?
If my answer to the preceeding question was "the Bible", did the Bible speak to me? With whom did I sit with to learn these rules? From whom did they learn it? How critically do I examine things? Has my critical examination changed from day 1 to now? What do friends and family from my time before belonging to this group say about me and my decision making?
Dear “The True WMSCOG”: thank you for this gift in providing this parable. A healthy blend of critical thought and intuition that occurs with the input of people within and outside of the group provides BALANCE for people – as compared to only obtaining information from one source; sources that typically provide its information with a monopoly on the information can easily use influence, conformity, and obedience to authority to reinforce itself. This healthy move towards balanced individuals is welcomed and surely it will now be encouraged on your website and put into practice….
Next, as “The True WMSCOG” moves in to the detailed examination of Steven Hassan, I would challenge the viewers to consider Ron Ramos’ statement (paraphrasing) ‘its not what is said, its what isn’t said’. To wit, “cult expert” is arguably a self-proclaimed profession; one cannot graduate with a degree in this discipline. And, there is indeed a damning review of Mr. Hassan’s book by Dr. Cathleen Mann here:
There are, however, also 15 other reviews, 11 of them giving 5 star reviews and 4 providing 4 star reviews.
The first germane point that I noticed was that “The True WMSCOG” first sought to discredit the field of “cult expertise” as a self-proclaimed profession and one in which there was no degree, then acknowledges cult expertise at 5:08 on behalf of Dr. Mann and uses it to discredit Hassan. There either is or isn’t “cult expertise”; using an issue to discredit itself is circular reasoning.
In order to mitigate tldnr, I will summarize a point here that while Dr. Mann raises important issues to question, the issue of if Dr. Mann or say, Rick Ross would take issue with the behavior of this or any group goes without being mentioned, which circles us back to the Ramos’ point of not what was said but what was left out; whether or not there is lying by omission or just a pattern of anecdotal thought is up to you, the reader, to decide. I wonder if thetruewmscog.com will solicit from Dr. Mann an opinion on the church for its website. I suspect that in advance of doing so Dr. Mann would ask tough questions, such as:
Do you study the Bible freely on your own or does someone have to interpret it?
Do you ever use better sounding words for activities — such as preaching instead of recruiting, etc.
Would your group allow you to read and examine this website?
How does the group and leadership generally deal with members who leave or who express doubt?
Do you think you have ever been misled by this group or its leaders?
How would you know that you are being lied to, if you are?
Does this group have one set of "truth" for insiders and one for outsiders? Can a reporter get information from the group outside of just superficial remarks?
How does the group view itself in relation to the outside world, if applicable?
Is your group the only group to have the only Truth/Path?
If you find out that you were being indoctrinated, would you leave? How would you recognize indoctrination? What are its characteristics?
Does the group teach that you isolate from non believers or family members?
Alas, these points are not addressed by “The True WMSCOG”. Neither are the points addressed of what defines a cult and its behavior patterns. It would be refreshing to have this list addressed by him in a comprehensive manner, don’t you think?
I just found out a sister was told abortion isn’t an issue because the baby doesn’t receive the “breath of life” until he/she is born & starts breathing. Depends on how you look at it-from their point of view that could make sense. On the other hand while they try to focus on the love & nurturing of mothers why would you want to harm the baby while pregnant. I don’t care one way or the other as I feel it is a personal choice. Each person has to deal with the consequences of their actions and stand before God on judgment day.
I find it funny that god the mother can’t make a firm decision about whether abortion is right or wrong in the eyes of “God”
It isn’t an issue is pretty firm
There is no official anything with the WMSCOG which makes understanding them so frustrating to me. There isn't even an official number of Gods being taught throughout the society. All we can do is tell you what we were told as a members. My Missionary told me that we don't know when the spirit enters the body so it's better safe than sorry. If you're already pregnant, don't get an abortion because you risk being guilty of murder. If you're not pregnant, don't get pregnant because the end is near and it will be very difficult for members with families especially infants to flee to Zion during the destruction. This is what my Missionary told me. I asked specifically because one of my fruit was going to get an abortion..
A member at my zion was told how blessed she was to be pregnant by zhang herself when she went to south korea
From what you've said, Disturbed, I would say their position is pro-choice, which is pro-abortion meaning that abortion is ok. But from what Renita has said, it sounds like anti-abortion meaning that abortion is not ok.
We need a current member who's in the know about this. FTOS, which is it?
The thing about the society is the teachings may be different from one Zion to the next. It could be the same even within the same Zion, it just depends on who is giving the answer. It was frowned upon in my Zion to even get pregnant because we were in the last days and because it takes you away from being a gospel worker. I asked a young married sister when they would have a baby. Her response to me was that she would not be responsible for anyone falling from heaven. In my mind I thought why not. We were the best ones to take care of those falling from heaven (in my opinion, at that time).
Idk why y'all keep reaching out to FTOS.. Insanity, as it was described to me, is repeating the same action whilst expecting a different result. Disturbed, it was frowned upon in SD Zion, too. We were encouraged to NOT get pregnant. Even through personal discussion with some sisters it was a mutual understanding that it was better not to get pregnant because it hinders the gospel. Anything that hinders the gospel is not a good thing. But we absolutely could not hold in our excitement when the babies were born. The deaconness in Seattle Zion called one sister's baby a baby porcupine. She said her baby reminded her of the Korean story about an ugly baby porcupine. LOL! We said, "Deaconness, you just called your little sister ugly.."
I remember one sister in Seattle Zion said, "Thanks to F&M, sister **** can return to preaching!" That's what they care about..
wonder how zhang keeps track of what zions encourage what so she doesn't bless a pregnancy in a zion that condemns them or something lol
She's briefed of the members who are going. When one sister shared a fragrance saying when she went to see Mother, she gave her a peace sign the sister knew she had to be God because that was an inside joke between her and our Missionary. I didn't buy it at all.. Missionary could have very well told Zahng something personal about the sister so when she went to visit, Mother could say/do something that would lead the sister to believe she was truly God. "But that's a lot of people to keep track of!" Not when you have Koreans in charge of different groups of people. It's not like anyone randomly goes to talk to Mother. You have to "wait your turn". The Koreans know who's next in line and can quickly open an excel page that gives a brief discription of the member. As far as the teachings go, just give a vague answer. "Mother, what does the bible teach about abortion?" "I love you and missed you so much daughter. Read the bible and pray to Father that He will give you understanding." I've never been there but from all the sisters who have gone and shared their experience, it's very, VERY organized. Everything has a time limit and everything goes exactly according to plan. Don't approach Mother unless it's in the schedule. Just practice your preaching until it's time for you to speak with Mother. You can ask her only 1 question and don't waste it on, "Will **** go to heaven?"
then there is always peace signs are just a thing she probably does vague enough things with everyone and little insignificant things KNOWING we will over analyze or and someone will find some sort of meaning with it
Yes my relative asked if his wife, a non-member, would go to heaven, and Mother said yes. Even though she is not a member and never will be. Of course, I figured this relative's handlers would then say that she is justified through him, and he just had to give more or recruit more to "buy" her way in. You know, put the onus on him to work even harder. That is what I think probaby happened. Realy unfair if she can go to heaven without believing in mother, keeping sabbath or Passover, etc., isn't it? (And just a tad unbelievable to the reasonable person, too)
you expect God to be consistant and fair? I think that's a tall order for an omnipotent being 😉
Simon wrote:
then there is always peace signs are just a thing she probably does vague enough things with everyone and little insignificant things KNOWING we will over analyze or and someone will find some sort of meaning with it
Precisely!
Lol! Nothing is a tall order for God.
MountainMom wrote:
Yes my relative asked if his wife, a non-member, would go to heaven, and Mother said yes. Even though she is not a member and never will be. Of course, I figured this relative's handlers would then say that she is justified through him, and he just had to give more or recruit more to "buy" her way in. You know, put the onus on him to work even harder. That is what I think probaby happened. Realy unfair if she can go to heaven without believing in mother, keeping sabbath or Passover, etc., isn't it? (And just a tad unbelievable to the reasonable person, too)
I honestly think she said it solely so he would stay in the church. Not that she doesn't need to keep PO or anything. She has given him false hope that one day his wife will accept F&M.. not that she will just miraculously going to heaven. This way he won't let his love for his wife overcome his new found love for F&M which could [and WILL] lead him away from the church. It will happen MM. =)
you could be right
You are definitely right Renita. I figured as much when I heard it. "Don't give up preaching, your loved ones will join eventually if you just have faith." Something on that order, right?
I remember something about noah built the ark and his family was saved and if we build the ark of zion our families will be saved
Never heard that Shimon. And that's totally true MM.
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