- Topic
When anecdotes rule the day, Questioninginla challenges your thought. It appears that the people on this forum are able to think critically. I found the following two videos to present nothing more than mere anecdotes, and when analyzed, actually provide more support for Ron, Diane, and Steve than the videos ultimately discredit, one just has to dig deeper and analyze in order to come to that conclusion.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zYhBwfmfIq0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FqWMSgrU9rA (addressed later in a separate post within this thread)
Video 1 begins with the “if you try to please everyone you will end up losing your ass (used in context with the animal, with double entendre for humour)” parable. “The True WMSCOG” emphasizes the influence people/groups of people have upon individuals. So, anyone within this or any church is now free to analyze how the influence of the masses affects him/herself. I may suggest a few questions to ask:
When I first started attending how many people sat in for my bible studies? Did this have influence on me?
Is my suit & tie dressing up for God or have I conformed to a dress code?
Have I changed my hair styles, behaviors, attitudes, habits, etc. to conform to the group?
Have I just deferred to a list of rules from the Bible to justify my answers to the above? If so, from whom did I learn this list of rules?
If my answer to the preceeding question was "the Bible", did the Bible speak to me? With whom did I sit with to learn these rules? From whom did they learn it? How critically do I examine things? Has my critical examination changed from day 1 to now? What do friends and family from my time before belonging to this group say about me and my decision making?
Dear “The True WMSCOG”: thank you for this gift in providing this parable. A healthy blend of critical thought and intuition that occurs with the input of people within and outside of the group provides BALANCE for people – as compared to only obtaining information from one source; sources that typically provide its information with a monopoly on the information can easily use influence, conformity, and obedience to authority to reinforce itself. This healthy move towards balanced individuals is welcomed and surely it will now be encouraged on your website and put into practice….
Next, as “The True WMSCOG” moves in to the detailed examination of Steven Hassan, I would challenge the viewers to consider Ron Ramos’ statement (paraphrasing) ‘its not what is said, its what isn’t said’. To wit, “cult expert” is arguably a self-proclaimed profession; one cannot graduate with a degree in this discipline. And, there is indeed a damning review of Mr. Hassan’s book by Dr. Cathleen Mann here:
There are, however, also 15 other reviews, 11 of them giving 5 star reviews and 4 providing 4 star reviews.
The first germane point that I noticed was that “The True WMSCOG” first sought to discredit the field of “cult expertise” as a self-proclaimed profession and one in which there was no degree, then acknowledges cult expertise at 5:08 on behalf of Dr. Mann and uses it to discredit Hassan. There either is or isn’t “cult expertise”; using an issue to discredit itself is circular reasoning.
In order to mitigate tldnr, I will summarize a point here that while Dr. Mann raises important issues to question, the issue of if Dr. Mann or say, Rick Ross would take issue with the behavior of this or any group goes without being mentioned, which circles us back to the Ramos’ point of not what was said but what was left out; whether or not there is lying by omission or just a pattern of anecdotal thought is up to you, the reader, to decide. I wonder if thetruewmscog.com will solicit from Dr. Mann an opinion on the church for its website. I suspect that in advance of doing so Dr. Mann would ask tough questions, such as:
Do you study the Bible freely on your own or does someone have to interpret it?
Do you ever use better sounding words for activities — such as preaching instead of recruiting, etc.
Would your group allow you to read and examine this website?
How does the group and leadership generally deal with members who leave or who express doubt?
Do you think you have ever been misled by this group or its leaders?
How would you know that you are being lied to, if you are?
Does this group have one set of "truth" for insiders and one for outsiders? Can a reporter get information from the group outside of just superficial remarks?
How does the group view itself in relation to the outside world, if applicable?
Is your group the only group to have the only Truth/Path?
If you find out that you were being indoctrinated, would you leave? How would you recognize indoctrination? What are its characteristics?
Does the group teach that you isolate from non believers or family members?
Alas, these points are not addressed by “The True WMSCOG”. Neither are the points addressed of what defines a cult and its behavior patterns. It would be refreshing to have this list addressed by him in a comprehensive manner, don’t you think?
renita.payno wrote:
It is odd that a comment posted was deleted. Why delete it? What was said in that post that would go against what you're saying now? FTOS is an interesting person who lives and works in Korea. I think he definitely has something to do with that video. I wonder what he thinks of my video. All he said was he liked my singing voice. He didn't say anything about my comments toward the WMSCOG.
Yes, very odd, that his comment is not there any longer. You know what's hilarious about the problems they are having in LA, the fact that it was in LA the first church they opened in America, and LA is the one that might be closing their biz.
come on did not Mother(god) know the LA church was going to be trouble for them, or is this a prophecy and fulfillment?
Is it the Reseda one that is having trouble or the Sunland one? Hopefully both. But I imagine when they say LA- they mean Reseda. Technically, Sunland was the first wmscog in the U.S.
Yep, spreading the gospel from the west to the east.
No my voice is more deeper.
Here it is:
fromtheotherside wrote:
No my voice is more deeper.
He got that super bass.. lol
I remember asking specifically about the last brother or sister who was to be found. If he/she is the last one then there's no possible way he/she could bear 10 talents aka find 10 brothers/sisters. My missionary told me that at that point it was left up to F&M. She said the 5 things we needed in order to enter heaven are: bear 10 talents, keep Mother's teachings, keep the Sabbath, keep the PO, and preach.
There was nothing bad about Mother's Teachings. None of them said to worship her of ASH. They basically said be nice and considerate.
Hal wrote:
fromtheotherside wrote:
Do you study the Bible freely on your own or does someone have to interpret it?
Philip and the Ethiopian acts 8:26 "How can I unles someone explains it to me?"
Just my .02 that will get me into trouble but I dont care….
"Search well in the Scriptures and do not rely on anyone's opinion".
HAAAALLLL!!!!! =)
As far as the control.. I don't understand your question. Are you saying that following Mother's Teachings is controlling? And if so, is that bad?
fromtheotherside wrote:
No my voice is more deeper.
My voice is "more" deeper. WHO TALKS LIKE THAT ? Fake Korean accent here folks, I guarantee it. My voice is "more" deeper, LOL.
Get a Haircut and get a real job.
Stained.
I found you in my bed
How'd you whined up there?
You are a mystery!
Little black curly hair!
Little black curly hair!
Little black, little black, little black,
little black, little black curly hair…
;-D
That or he’s my five year old sister
I wanted to make something clear regarding Diane and Ron's video. First of all you realize they did cut up that video and when Diane said no one called her who do you thing she was talking about? I would think since she spent 9 years in the church giving up her family and other activities, she had to be talking about the sisters in the church. The ones that she probably grew up with in there. What do you think? We all know how that feels….. So the Pastor or the so called mother 2 months later calling probably wasn't what she needed or she wanted. They are no one to her. that's their job to follow up especially when it was a prominate position like hers.
The fact that she mocked mother, well let's be honest hasn't almost all of us done this since we left. She says the same thing in english to everyone, even when she went on the radio in 2012.
Questioninginla wrote:
Liberty wrote:
Is it the Reseda one that is having trouble or the Sunland one? Hopefully both. But I imagine when they say LA- they mean Reseda. Technically, Sunland was the first wmscog in the U.S.
What is the trouble? I missed that issue. thanks.
renita.payno wrote:
I remember asking specifically about the last brother or sister who was to be found. If he/she is the last one then there's no possible way he/she could bear 10 talents aka find 10 brothers/sisters. My missionary told me that at that point it was left up to F&M. She said the 5 things we needed in order to enter heaven are: bear 10 talents, keep Mother's teachings, keep the Sabbath, keep the PO, and preach.
submit & obey at the top of the list, or no?
Renita:
Don't forget you also have to tithe according to the Melchizedek prophecy. I have heard that if you didn't tithe you couldn't take the Passover. Tithing is very important to become a talent too.
Do you know if the tithes actually go to Mother?
Mothers teachings are only controlling if you let it be. the question is,,"Does God want to control you?" I thought that was one of the reasons we followed satan in heaven God didn't want robots. He wants us to love Him because we do. not cause we have to.
But, now we see many many robots in the church. One pastor told me. "we don't have to think anymore we just have to do"
Truth wrote:
I wanted to make something clear regarding Diane and Ron's video. First of all you realize they did cut up that video and when Diane said no one called her who do you thing she was talking about? I would think since she spent 9 years in the church giving up her family and other activities, she had to be talking about the sisters in the church. The ones that she probably grew up with in there. What do you think? We all know how that feels….. So the Pastor or the so called mother 2 months later calling probably wasn't what she needed or she wanted. They are no one to her. that's their job to follow up especially when it was a prominate position like hers.
The fact that she mocked mother, well let's be honest hasn't almost all of us done this since we left. She says the same thing in english to everyone, even when she went on the radio in 2012.
Since we left? My sisters and I mocked the Koreans all the time! We even squinted our eyes when we said God Bless You. lol..
I would like to edit my list. You're right, I forgot tithing. It was Sabbath and PO. It was the Feasts. I knew that didn't seem right.. My mistake.
10 talents, Feasts, tithe, Mother's teachings, preach.
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