Rebuttal videos by The True WMSCOG on YouTube

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  • #7226
    Questioninginla
    Participant

    When anecdotes rule the day, Questioninginla challenges your thought.  It appears that the people on this forum are able to think critically.  I found the following two videos to present nothing more than mere anecdotes, and when analyzed, actually provide more support for Ron, Diane, and Steve than the videos ultimately discredit, one just has to dig deeper and analyze in order to come to that conclusion.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zYhBwfmfIq0

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FqWMSgrU9rA (addressed later in a separate post within this thread)

    Video 1 begins with the “if you try to please everyone you will end up losing your ass (used in context with the animal, with double entendre for humour)” parable.  “The True WMSCOG” emphasizes the influence people/groups of people have upon individuals.  So, anyone within this or any church is now free to analyze how the influence of the masses affects him/herself.  I may suggest a few questions to ask:

    When I first started attending how many people sat in for my bible studies?  Did this have influence on me?

    Is my suit & tie dressing up for God or have I conformed to a dress code?

    Have I changed my hair styles, behaviors, attitudes, habits, etc.  to conform to the group?

    Have I just deferred to a list of rules from the Bible to justify my answers to the above?  If so, from whom did I learn this list of rules?

    If my answer to the preceeding question was "the Bible", did the Bible speak to me?  With whom did I sit with to learn these rules?  From whom did they learn it?  How critically do I examine things?  Has my critical examination changed from day 1 to now?  What do friends and family from my time before belonging to this group say about me and my decision making?

    Dear “The True WMSCOG”:  thank you for this gift in providing this parable.  A healthy blend of critical thought and intuition that occurs with the input of people within and outside of the group provides BALANCE for people – as compared to only obtaining information from one source; sources that typically provide its information with a monopoly on the information can easily use influence, conformity, and obedience to authority to reinforce itself.  This healthy move towards balanced individuals is welcomed and surely it will now be encouraged on your website and put into practice….

    Next, as “The True WMSCOG” moves in to the detailed examination of Steven Hassan, I would challenge the viewers to consider Ron Ramos’ statement (paraphrasing) ‘its not what is said, its what isn’t said’.  To wit, “cult expert” is arguably a self-proclaimed profession; one cannot graduate with a degree in this discipline.  And, there is indeed a damning review of Mr. Hassan’s book by Dr. Cathleen Mann here:

    http://www.amazon.com/Freedom-Mind-Helping-Controlling-Beliefs/product-reviews/0967068819/ref=cm_cr_dp_see_all_btm?ie=UTF8&showViewpoints=1&sortBy=bySubmissionDateDescending

    There are, however, also 15 other reviews, 11 of them giving 5 star reviews and 4 providing 4 star reviews. 

    The first germane point that I noticed was that “The True WMSCOG” first sought to discredit the field of “cult expertise” as a self-proclaimed profession and one in which there was no degree, then acknowledges cult expertise at 5:08 on behalf of Dr. Mann and uses it to discredit Hassan.  There either is or isn’t “cult expertise”; using an issue to discredit itself is circular reasoning.

    In order to mitigate tldnr, I will summarize a point here that while Dr. Mann raises important issues to question, the issue of if Dr. Mann or say, Rick Ross would take issue with the behavior of this or any group goes without being mentioned, which circles us back to the Ramos’ point of not what was said but what was left out; whether or not there is lying by omission or just a pattern of anecdotal thought is up to you, the reader, to decide.  I wonder if thetruewmscog.com will solicit from Dr. Mann an opinion on the church for its website.  I suspect that in advance of doing so Dr. Mann would ask tough questions, such as:

    Do you study the Bible freely on your own or does someone have to interpret it?

    Do you ever use better sounding words for activities — such as preaching instead of recruiting, etc.

    Would your group allow you to read and examine this website?

    How does the group and leadership generally deal with members who leave or who express doubt?

    Do you think you have ever been misled by this group or its leaders?

    How would you know that you are being lied to, if you are?

    Does this group have one set of "truth" for insiders and one for outsiders?  Can a reporter get information from the group outside of just superficial remarks?

    How does the group view itself in relation to the outside world, if applicable?

    Is your group the only group to have the only Truth/Path?

    If you find out that you were being indoctrinated, would you leave? How would you recognize indoctrination?  What are its characteristics?

    Does the group teach that you isolate from non believers or family members?

     

    Alas, these points are not addressed by “The True WMSCOG”.  Neither are the points addressed of what defines a cult and its behavior patterns.  It would be refreshing to have this list addressed by him in a comprehensive manner, don’t you think?

  • #57637

    Simon
    Participant

    I think it was the same idea "they see how diligent we are they will be moved to follow mother"

    #57638

    Questioninginla
    Participant

    renita.payno wrote:

    She's briefed of the members who are going. When one sister shared a fragrance saying when she went to see Mother, she gave her a peace sign the sister knew she had to be God because that was an inside joke between her and our Missionary. I didn't buy it at all.. Missionary could have very well told Zahng something personal about the sister so when she went to visit,"

    Excellent identification of Mystical Manipulation.

    Dr. Lifton, "Eight Criteria", more info here: http://www.rickross.com/reference/brainwashing/brainwashing19.html

    #57639

    emil
    Participant

    Sarah2013 wrote:

     

    What's a "fake Korean" accent in the first place. In America, I'm considered to have an accent;  In France, they say I have a slight American accent which they love. So I think people who speak differently from the majority in any given area have accents. So in the end, don't we all have accents and depending on where we are our accents stand out from the norm?

    It is interesting that we consider anyone speaking a language differently as having an accent. It reminds me of the time I was in the States back in 1984 I think. We were a group of guys from England, Norway, Sweden and India driving from Phoenix to Flagstaff and decided to take a "shortcut" which turned out to be not so short. At a gas station, the attandant got talking with us and was particularly fascinated by the Englishman. Turned out that the attendant was of Scottish decent and he mentioned that he loved that English accent. Our Englishman friend was pretty upset with the idea of the American saying that the Englishman had an accent.

    #57640

    Sarah2013
    Participant

    I know, right. Lol.

    #57641

    confuzed
    Participant

    The voice in those videos is Lozada

    #57642

    Simon
    Participant

    confuzed wrote:

    The voice in those videos is Lozada

    what are you talking about?

    #57643

    Love'n Honey
    Participant

    Brother Lozada

    #57644

    Love'n Honey
    Participant
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