[emil]

The WMSCOG makes a big deal out of two things; keeping the Sabbath and celebrating the Passover. For both things, I understand they teach that the catholic church abolished them in the 4th century.

I am starting this thread to discuss the issue of the Sabbath day and about when and how it was abolished by the catholic church. I request wmscog members and former members to weigh in. 

[MountainMom]

[MountainMom]

Ok, thanks for trying to help me.  I still don't get how they figure the times, and they obviously don't quote Bible verse for that or it would be black and white.  So it's arbitrary, I think.  Done by man's rules. 

[Simon]

9 And 3 are in scripture how that is converted is probably arbitrary

[Simon]

9 And 3 are in scripture how that is converted is probably arbitrary

[emil]

Simon wrote:

yes 10/14 I get that but either way there is consistency its not like there is a country say 48 hours ahead or behind Israel (and even if their were we could still calculate what day is correct.) 

If for some reason the United States wanted to fall on tomorow and put me in Jerusalem +14 it would still be consistent but Saturday wouldn't become Sunday and Sabbath would fall on Saturday still, Saturday would just come sooner.

 

Now say The United States wanted to shift to say Jerusalem +59 THEN we'd have a calculation issue Sabbath would be shifted to Monday because that would be the day in the United States 14 hours before it was Saturday in Israel.

OK. Here's the thing.

Today we use the longitude of Greenwich, England as 0 degrees, the prime meridian. There is nothing about the earth that determines the choice naturally. It is a purely arbitrary choice. The time at this location is taken as reference for our timezones. So Israel is UTC+2 hours. You probably are UTC-6 hours. Just guessing but assume that. Let us say it is Saturday in Israel. Now you are starting your Saturday 8 hours after it begins in Israel. All fine so far. You are keeping a Saturday sabbath on the day God commanded Israel to keep it but you are starting 8 hours later, which is fine so far. So when you wake up at 6 am on your Saturday morning, it is 2 pm Saturday afternoon already in Jerusalem. If you consider sunrise start of day, then you are just beginning your sabbath day while those in Jerusalem are more than half way through theirs already. Are we in sync thus far?

Now for argument sake, let us assume that the countries of the world get together and decide to change the 0 meridian. As I said, the choice was arbitrary to begin with although there was some serendipity involved with the choice.

For simplicity, let us assume that the present 180 degree meridian (aloing which the IDL mostly lies) becomes the 0 meridian. This beomes the UTC reference. Let us calculate the new time zones. Now Israel becomes UTC – 10 hours and your location becomes UTC+6 hours. So now you are actually 16 hours ahead of Jerusalem instead of 8 hours behind. Trust me with those calculations but if anyone finds an error, feel free to point it out. Let us take Israel day and time time that we took above to continue this study since God's calendar was instituted there. Now Israel wakes up at 6 am to start their Saturday. They go on to 2 pm, the time we checked in the previous example. What is the time at your place now? Check it out. 2 pm plus 16 hours puts you at 6 am just like before. But wait. Now you are at 6 am Sunday and not 6 am Saturday. So the exact same day, which you now consider as Saturday, could very well have been Sunday if the prime meridian was chosen differently.

When you consider that the Saturday in Israel has been the same from the time of the Exodus, you must realize that the choice of the prime meridian was made cenrturies later. While I can agree with you that the Saturday of the Israelites in Israel has stayed the same since Exodus, the same cannot be said about elsewhere in the world separated by more than 15-30 degrees of longitude (representing 1 to 2 hours of time difference) from Israel. The day you now call Saturday in your location, is a result of man's aribitrary choice made well after biblical times. If man had chosen differently, you would have called that same day Sunday as I have demonstrated above.

I hope the point I am making here is clear to everybody. If we insist that Sabbath has to be on Saturday because God commanded it as the specific day, we can only do that if we adopt the absolute time in Israel for keeping the sabbath rather than adjusting for our time zones because adjusting means we could well be keeping the wrong day. I would really appreciate inputs from others too so that I know if my explanation of the point is clearly articulated.

[Simon]

Already addressed that read paragraph 2

[donttrustzang]

Lets just say God did command us a certain day, such as Saturday…Im sure God knows when the sun rose for each person. Your thinking of a day as a 24 hour block, starting when the sun rises in Israel. But why would God judge the whole world according to Isreals time?

[emil]

Simon wrote:

Already addressed that read paragraph 2

No you have not understood apparently. That will not happen. If you were to be shifted to UTC+14 from UTC-10, your day would change. Your Saturday would precede the one in Jerusalem rather than follow it. So taking the days of the week in Israel as reference, you would have Sunday the day you now have Saturday. You would lose the continuity of your 7 day week. Let me know if you don't get that. I'll try to make it clearer.

 

donttrustzang wrote:

Lets just say God did command us a certain day, such as Saturday…Im sure God knows when the sun rose for each person. Your thinking of a day as a 24 hour block, starting when the sun rises in Israel. But why would God judge the whole world according to Isreals time?

exactly my point.

[Simon]

Its you who doesn’t get it

[emil]

Yes I do not get it. Are you saying that Saturday is any day that we humans choose to call so? If you mean that then please declare that and I don't have anything further to say. If not, then read on.

You yourself claimed once that the Saturday of the Israelites has been unbroken in identification since the days of the Exodus. This is one point on which you claimed that keeping the Saturday sabbath was according to God's calendar. In Israel, Saturday has occured every 7th day without break since the law was given. Lets take that as accepted though not 100% certain.

Now you said there would be no problem if you were 14 hours ahead of Israel instead of 10 hours behind. Please understand what will happen. Let us say that today the USA agrees to the switch. Normally these switches are done at midnight. They have happened before.

You are on May 23rd, Thursday correct? You have a Friday to come and then it is Saturday right? Tonight at the stroke of midnight you make the switch. Because of the switch, you will not have May 24th, Friday at all. Instead, tomorrow would be May 25th Saturday. Henceforth, all your Saturdays are no more an unbroken chain of every 7th day from ancient times. This has happened in some countries before. Some have even done it multiple times.

I told you that Hawai and Kiribati are on the same meridian and have the same exact time. Only thing is Kiribati choses to be in the Eastern hemisphere and therefore they are a full day ahead of Hawai. This is not chosen by God but by man. In effect, a person has Saturday in Hawai the very same moments when the Kiribatian has Sunday.

Since the concept of timezones and dates in various parts of the world were introduced at much later dates one cannot say that the day you observe a Saturday sabbath is God's choice because it is man's choice to call that day the Saturday of Israel.

[Simon]

Your interpretation would make a pharisee blush

[Simon]

If I keep ALL time Jerusalem -10  or ALL time Jerusalem +14 then its acceptable

 

I can't though decide to keep All time Jerusalem -10 except keep Sabbath +14 (for example)

 

Although here keeping Sabbath on Sunday would be like -34 

[Simon]

at least now

[emil]

Simon wrote:

If I keep ALL time Jerusalem -10  or ALL time Jerusalem +14 then its acceptable

 

I can't though decide to keep All time Jerusalem -10 except keep Sabbath +14 (for example)

 

Although here keeping Sabbath on Sunday would be like -34 

Jerusalem -10 or Jerusalem +14 is exactly the same time but a different day. Do you get that?

If you have Jerusalem -10 and one day, you decide to switch to Jerusalem +14, you will have one 6 day week and from then on, your earlier 7th day would now be the 1st day of the next week. If you consider a continuous block of 7 days from before you switched, you would find that you are now keeping sabbath on the day that is the 1st day of the block of 7.

I do not know how you come to the conclusion that Sunday would be -34. What is -34? Are you saying Jerusalem -34? Basically there only two logical choices. Every place in the world on a different longitude than Jerusalem could have its week starting before Jerusalem or after. Whether it starts before or after Jerusalem is a human choice. In other words, any one of two days could have been your Saturday. The one you now call Saturday and the one you now call Sunday could either one have been your Saturday. The choice was made when man drew the IDL through the Pacific. This is assuming that Jerusalem is our reference point.

I am not able to understand what you are trying to say. Here is what I understand you saying. Correct me if I am wrong. You are saying that it does not matter which day man chose (does not include Jerusalem or Mt Sinai because God chose it for that place) to be the Saturday. You are bound to keep the day that man chose as being Saturday. Is that right?

 

@Hal – I agree with you for yourself and your faith. But I hope you are getting my point which I have stated above. Can you point out the scripture verse you allude to?

[Simon]

No i am saying i must keep Sabbath on Saturday and i can go +14/-10. Either way BUT all time must be +14/-10 not just Sabbath

can’t keep my secular dating as 10 hours behind Jerusalem but keep Sabbath as if I’m 14 hours ahead

[emil]

I agree. I did not even imply that you have a different way of keeping secular time and sabbath day.

I am saying if your secular time was +14, your Saturday would have been one day earlier than it is with -10. Just to clarify, we are talking -10 and +14 wrt Jerusalem.

[Simon]

Yep. Jerusalem being gods capital on earth

[emil]

Thanks Hal. So we have the day correctly traced back to antiquity as determined in Jerusalem. For the rest of the globe far off from there, we have the actual day called day 1, or day 7 if you like, decided by the human choice of the zero meridian and the IDL. I don't have a problem with that. Just trying to understand. The law was given to the Jews to be kept. As the Jews spread all over the globe, there had to be a formula to decide whether a place would be ahead or behind Jerusalem for time and date. You have opted to follow the formula set down by secular society and it is perfectly reasonable.