[emil]

The WMSCOG makes a big deal out of two things; keeping the Sabbath and celebrating the Passover. For both things, I understand they teach that the catholic church abolished them in the 4th century.

I am starting this thread to discuss the issue of the Sabbath day and about when and how it was abolished by the catholic church. I request wmscog members and former members to weigh in. 

[Love'n Honey]

[Love'n Honey]

emil wrote:

renita.payno wrote:

Neither was refraining from idolatry, worshipping God only, bearing false witness.. Matt 19:18-19 Question: Was His answer to the rich man specifically or was it for all who read the bible? If it's for everyone, then I can worship any god I want to and still go to heaven? Perhaps He wasn't just naming those things; maybe He was referring to the 10 Commandments in whole without saying them all. But even then, why would He leave out the 1st one of all things?

Bearing false witness was included with the young man. About worshiping God alone, Jesus mentioned it other times. My point is that Jesus explicitly confirmed all the other commandments except the Sabbath at various times in the Gospels. I mentioned the story of the young man only because it was one place where many commandments were mentioned at the same time. So the question should be "why did he only leave out the Sabbath?"

So are you saying that His answer to the rich man wasn't specific to the rich man? Even though He didn't tell the rich man not to worship other gods directly the man would still be held accountable for it if it did?

He didn't leave out the Sabbath. He kept the Sabbath as you said and said to follow His example. A. Paul said to follow His example.

[Love'n Honey]

emil wrote:

renita.payno wrote:

The Sabbath was made for man's blessing. All the commands for made for man's blessings. Worshipping only the true God is for man, not for God. God doesn't need us to worship Him… [or maybe He does. Perhaps the only way He can exist if people worship Him. Once He is no longer woshipped He will disappear and new God will take over.. Lol, jk… maybe not..]

Going by the bible, the only commandment with a blessing attached is the one to honour your father and mother.

Jesus specifically said the sabbath was made for man. Obviously it means for his benefit. He didn't say that about any other commandment. At a time when slavery was rampant, the Sabbath commandment forced the Jews to ensure that their slaves got one day of rest every week. You say all the commandments were for man's blessing. Paul does not agree. He says the law was a curse – Gal 3:10 and Gal 3:13

We are losing sight of the fact that we have a loving God who wants to save us and sent His Son to take up the curse of the law so we could be free from it. If we keep clinging to the old covenant, we reject the saving grace of Jesus.

Ez 20:12 Those who keep the Sabbath know the Lord. Is that not a blesssing? Those who worship God are given the opportunity to go to heaven. Is that not a blessing? Luke 6:23.. Jer 51:52-53 God will destroy babylon and her idols so we are warned not to worship idols and to come out of babylon. Is that not a blessing?

With all seriousness… I must be misunderstanding what a blessing is. I hear it thrown around a lot and I thought receiving instruction from God is a blessing.

[emil]

renita.payno wrote:

 

Ez 20:12 Those who keep the Sabbath know the Lord. Is that not a blesssing? 

The translation is slightly ambiguous. It talks of the sabbath being a sign. Anyway see below about the blessing aspect.

Those who worship God are given the opportunity to go to heaven. Is that not a blessing? Luke 6:23.. Jer 51:52-53 God will destroy babylon and her idols so we are warned not to worship idols and to come out of babylon. Is that not a blessing?

With all seriousness… I must be misunderstanding what a blessing is. I hear it thrown around a lot and I thought receiving instruction from God is a blessing.

OK let me explain what I mean by blessing in the way I used it. All the commandment are given as a kind of negative motivation. In other words, if you don't keep the commandment, you will receive punishment. You could say that not going to hell is a blessing. Waking up every morning is a blessing. But they are blessing of the kind that something bad didn't happen.

The commandment to honour father and mother is the only one that has a blessing specifically mentioned for keeping it. Hope you got my point.

[Simon]

Then again being made holy is a greater blessing than long life

[emil]

^ I agree with your statement. Can you explain the context? How is it related to the discussion on the commandments?

[Love'n Honey]

Ex 31:13 says you must observe my Sabbaths… a sign.. the Lord.. who makes you holy.

The WMSCOG says when we keep the Sabbath day, God makes us holy. I don't see how this verse says keeping the Sabbath will make you holy.

Lev 20:8, Lev 22:9, and other places [mostly in Lev] say, "I am the Lord, who makes you holy." I think he's just distinguishing himself from any other lord. There is no other lord who makes them holy. Only Jehovah is the one who makes us holy. That's how I always understood it. I received it the way the WMSCOG taught but I didn't accept it that way.

[Love'n Honey]

Also, Emil, just because one command has a blessing attached directly to it doesn't mean the other commands don't have blessings, too. It is "unfair" to say that the 5th command is the only one with a blessing. You just don't have to look for how it's a blessing.

[Love'n Honey]

I think what's more correct to say is that it's the only one that is diliberate about the blessing.

[emil]

Yes Renita. I mentioned it only because you said the Sabbath was made for man's blessing. I agree with that too although Jesus said it was made for man. period.

How was it a blessing for man? Spiritually, man could set aside a day to dedicate to God. Temporaly, man would be assured of at least one day of rest after 6 days of physical labour. The actual day is not so important.

If one has to set aside the same day, then how do you arrive at the day? The Israelites started their sabbath rest at dusk on Friday. Sabbatarians today are divided on this issue too. Some sabbatarians even believe that the whole of creation keeps sabbath at exactly the same time. The wmscog starts on Saturday dawn. Could you or Simon or FTOS share why they start on Saturday morning rather than Friday evening?

[Love'n Honey]

it's a blessing because it's a command from God and all commands from God lead us to heaven. you shouldn't say in one sentence you agree then ask me a question that implies a disagreement. and i'm not going to discuss with you about setting aside a day for God. that alone sound ridiculous.

[emil]

I don't think you understood my post. I did not ask YOU a question in connection with agreeing with you. I asked a question and answered it to show how it was a blessing on both spiritual and temporal ways.

My question to you was about when is one expected to keep the sabbath. You don't have to discuss anything with me if you choose not to. But I don't know why you say it sounds ridiculous. It is God's command after all to keep the sabbath rest.

[Simon]

God says to keep the sabbath on the seventh day not one day in seven

as for sunset vs sunrise that is debated since well before ahnsahnghong

wmscog just happens to subscribe to sunrise

[Love'n Honey]

emil wrote:

I don't think you understood my post. I did not ask YOU a question in connection with agreeing with you. I asked a question and answered it to show how it was a blessing on both spiritual and temporal ways.

 

My question to you was about when is one expected to keep the sabbath. You don't have to discuss anything with me if you choose not to. But I don't know why you say it sounds ridiculous. It is God's command after all to keep the sabbath rest.

I know I don't have to which is why I said I wasn't going to. We've been going back and forth for so long that we find ourselves repeating what we've already said. So, in response to your claim being ridiculous, I've already answered it many times both directly and indirectly.

We're not going to agree so there's no point. It appears Shymen is willing to entertain. I've had the sunrise theory study it makes sense. There was some day "lost" from one of the Feasts if the sunset theory was kept.

[emil]

Deut 4:14 – 

And the Lord directed me at that time to teach you the decrees and laws you are to follow in the land that you are crossing the Jordan to possess.

When God specified the day, it was to a specific people in a specific region. If you consider the day absolute and you have to follow it to the letter, you must follow it at the exact same time it is followed by those people in that region. Which means your sabbath must start some 10 hours earlier. I don't see anyone doing that. The day you call Saturday in the US is entirely a human conception. It could well have been Friday if humans had decided to run the international date line through the Atlantic rather than Pacific ocean.

You know that even later, there were special arrangements for the diaspora even though the dispersal was only a few degrees of the meridian. I refer in particular to the extra days added at the beginning and end of the passover period. There was a reason for that.

[emil]

renita.payno wrote:

 

I know I don't have to which is why I said I wasn't going to. We've been going back and forth for so long that we find ourselves repeating what we've already said. So, in response to your claim being ridiculous, I've already answered it many times both directly and indirectly.

We're not going to agree so there's no point. It appears Shymen is willing to entertain. I've had the sunrise theory study it makes sense. There was some day "lost" from one of the Feasts if the sunset theory was kept.

Perhaps so but either I missed it or did not understand why it is ridiculous. If you wish, you can repeat your reasoning. It's your call.

Just to be clear, you said, "i'm not going to discuss with you about setting aside a day for God. that alone sound ridiculous."

[Simon]

I’ve already debunked your dateline argument

[emil]

^ you haven't. Just claimed that it is incorrect. No reasoning provided.

[Simon]

I gave reasoning

[emil]

Can't say I have seen any reasoning about this from you. You are aware I suppose that Hawai and Kiribati have the exact same time but a day difference being on the same meridian. In other words, during the exact same hours it is Saturday in Hawai, it is Sunday in Kiribati. There are also situations when Sunday in Kiribati starts before Saturday starts in another place which I can't recollect now. Who is responsible for this?

What abot places like the Philippines which shifted its time zone from the Western to the Eastern hemisphere at the end of 1844 losing a day in the process?

My point is that there is absolute time and relative time. What we commonly use is relative. If you insist on absolute time for the Sabbath, you have to start your sabbath when it starts in Mt. Sinai.

This is only the first part of my argument.

[Simon]

Time zones are consistent across the earth and anywhere that breaks the consistent nature of time zones can be dealt with case by case