- Topic
The WMSCOG makes a big deal out of two things; keeping the Sabbath and celebrating the Passover. For both things, I understand they teach that the catholic church abolished them in the 4th century.
I am starting this thread to discuss the issue of the Sabbath day and about when and how it was abolished by the catholic church. I request wmscog members and former members to weigh in.
Do they say that the Catholic church "abolished" the Sabbath or that they "changed it to Sunday"?
Same thing
The Christian Sunday became a progressively esteemed day by the apostles and Christians in the first century world for its relation to the resurrection of Jesus on that day. It was never considered "the new Sabbath" by the apostles (that is a mistaken understanding that developed in the Middle ages), but became the day that Christians gathered for worship. Even before Christians started to get kicked out of the synagogues (hence, preventing them from celebrating the Sabbath) in the first century, they started to meet for distinctly Christian worship that they could not get on Saturday when they were celebrating the Sabbath with the non-Christian Jews. By the end of the first century, the apostolic tradition of meeting on Sunday was sealed – this is clear in Revelation 1:10, where John coined Sunday with the highly esteemed title, "LORD'S DAY."
This was just near the time that the non-Christians had a day devoted to Caesar where they declared, "Caesar is Lord". The very fact that Christians were gathering on Sunday for distinctly Christian worship demonstrated to the world that they refused to worship a pagan king over Jesus Christ, who rose from the dead on Sunday. Sunday worship distinguished them as Christians – and led very possibly to the martyrdom of many Christians when the encroaching age of persecution came along.
In the fourth century, when Constantine ordered that all shops be closed, he was merely making accommodations for Christians of the empire in consideration of the Sunday-worship tradition that had already been established. He probably had to figure out a way to make pagans happy too since they also were apart of the empire, hence he said, "venerable day of the sun".
I guess what I'm trying to say is that the fact that Christians worship on Sunday is NOT without reason – it is an apostolic tradition that has been preserved by the Church through the centuries.
As for the Saturday, "Sabbath" – as I mentioned, Christians were probably taking less part in that day of celebration in the first century because of the tensions between the Jews and Christians. In fact, it appears that Christians were confused by whether or not they were supposed to keep the Sabbath. The people who converted to Christianity from the gentile community probably did not keep the Sabbath – it wasn't even apart of their custom. It seems that many of the Jews however thought that they needed to keep the Sabbath. You can see Paul trying to settle the problem in his letter to the Romans (14:5), Galatians (4:10) and Colossians (2:16). He wants no divisiveness in the church and therefore expresses that keeping the Sabbath is NOT essential. We live in the age of fulfillment – the Lord of the Sabbath has arrived and died for us and Risen and is still alive and will return to consummate His kingdom. Believers can rest in Him and in this truth.
PA wrote:
By the end of the first century, the apostolic tradition of meeting on Sunday was sealed – this is clear in Revelation 1:10, where John coined Sunday with the highly esteemed title, "LORD'S DAY."
How so? I don't see that at all..
Me neither
Rev. 1:10 "On the Lord’s Day I was in the Spirit, and I heard behind me a loud voice like a trumpet"
Other early writings verify that "the Lord's Day" was indeed Sunday.
Sorry-there is so much more I could have said to explain what I wrote. Very briefly….
First, Christian worship on Sunday can be traced in the Bible. There are two primary passages, which demonstrate that Christians were meeting on Sunday (the first day of the week) in the first century (apostolic era): Acts 20:7-12 (they gathered corporately to break bread) and 1 Corinthians 16:2-3 (the day they gathered corporately to make a collection). The fact that Paul (an apostle of Jesus) was actively apart of these gatherings (teaching, gathering money and worshipping) shows that he approved of the growing tradition of meeting on that day. Gathering on Sunday "the first day of the week" was a tradition amongst Christians in the early period that was related to remembrance of Christ who rose from the dead on that day.
As for the "Lord's Day" term used in Revelation 1:10, I have much I'd love to say, but for now I will just point out writings from early (first and second century) Christians who help to identify what the author of Revelation (which was written in mid 90's A.D.) was referring to.
Ignatius for example, wrote:
“If, therefore, those who were brought up in the ancient order of things have come to the possession of a new hope, no longer observing the Sabbath, but living in the observance of the LORD'S DAY, on which also our life has sprung up again by Him and by His death – whom some deny, by which mystery we have obtained faith, and therefore endure, that we may be found the disciples of Jesus Christ, our only Master – how shall we be able to live apart from Him, whose disciples the prophets themselves in the Spirit did wait for Him as their Teacher? And therefore He whom they rightly waited for, being come, raised them from the dead.”
Another example, Justin Martyr wrote:
“But Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day on which God, having wrought a change in the darkness and matter, made the world; and Jesus Christ our Savior on the same day rose from the dead.”
I could write much more about this, but I'm not trying to show anything more here than simply that Christians have been meeting on Sunday from long before WMSCOG members claim (which they claim is the 4th century by Constantine). That is not true. There is valid evidence that Christians have been meeting on Sunday from the earliest periods.
Genny…I just saw your post. Thank you for adding that 🙂
Acts 20 is a bad argument breaking bread happened daily.
so far as 1 Cor 16 it says to set it aside not to collect it.
That verse/chapter in Rev says nothing about the 1st day or Sunday or a Sabbath.. From Scripture alone, you cannot say that John was talking about implementing Sunday worship. It is the only verse that says "Lord's Day" in the bible.
Renita-
I don't think that John was "implementing" Sunday worship. However, his passing reference of the phrase, "Lord's day" demonstrates that a precedent had already been set in the practice at least in the churches that John was writing to. The other writings of early church fathers who wrote at the very time used the same Greek phrase that John used and used it in the context of Sunday worship.
I am not saying here that Sunday worship is "commanded" in Scripture. I'm merely saying that from references in Scripture demonstrate that Christians were gathering on that day. I do not believe that writings of early Church father's are authoritative like the Bible. However, they can be used to help shine some light on what certain phrases and words from Scripture mean.
The writings above, along with a few others that I am aware of demonstrate that people were gathering together on Sunday, the first day of the week, the Lord's day by the late first century. This tradition in the early church had to develop over time and throughout the regions that the Gospel had been spread.
If I may ask – do you believe that the Christian Sunday began at the time of Constantine? And what do you believe that John in Revelation 1:10 meant by the "Lord's day".
Simon-
Good points. However, I would encourage you to do a general search in some commentaries about those passages. Or, a great book is "From Sabbath to Lord's Day" by D.A. Carson because it examines every discussion that Bible scholars have ever had on what was taking place in those passages, and the significance of the phrase, "first day of the week." I think you might find that you might discover that those passages shine considerable light on the origins of the Christian Sunday.
Actually WMSCOG teaches that Sunday worship began around 100 AD but became official in 321 AD according to ruling of Constantine
Just my humble opinion & understanding…from what I learned “there”. The 4th commandment is to Keep the Sabbath Day Holy….the 7th day belongs to God. How can we omit this command & treat others with more respect? Everyone knows God commanded us not to murder, steal, covet, etc…but what about this one?
It appears that “man” changed the day of worship according to how I understand the previous posts. Even before I joined the WMSCOG I always wondered about Sabbath day & what it really meant. I have asked pastors at Sunday churches about the Sabbath. They have acknowledged that the 7th day is Saturday but the reason they worship on Sunday is because of tradition. Whose tradition though? Can anyone give a verse in which Jesus said I’m changing from Sabbath (that I’ve kept my whole life since I’m Jewish) to Sunday? I personally cannot go to a Sunday church now that I’m out of WMSCOG because I don’t think we’re supposed to go on that day. I’m not persecuting or judging anyone who goes on Sunday, I’m just saying its not for me.
The Edict of Milan authorized Christianity. Christians were being heavily persecuted/killed at this time. In 321 AD Constantine made the first day of the week (Sunday) a holiday and called it the venerable day of the Sun.
I’m not going to debate about the reformers. I do question why the Catholic Church has a different set if commandments than what was listed in the Jewish Torah. I’m not catholic but I did attend catholic school many years and I don’t agree with their doctrine. But like I said I’m not here to persecute or judge I’m just giving my opinion. I’m not anything except Christian and I want to follow Christ the way I’m supposed to (which I don’t know just yet because I’m in a state of confusion).
They are grouped differently and reworded. Take a King James Version bible and a catholic bible (or google Catholic 10 commandments) and there is a clear difference. They change you shall not worship other gods to you shall not worship strange gods. They removed the commandment about no idolatry. Last commandment was divided into two in the catholic bible.
I’m not trying to bash the Catholic Church because God knows I did enough of that. I’m just pointing out one of the many things that bother me about the doctrine. To each his own. If you are catholic it isn’t my intent to offend you. It’s just not for me. I will keep the Sabbath on Saturday because to me God commanded it. We live in a country built on religious freedom so everyone can choose which day they want to worship according to their understanding and/or tradition.
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