[emil]

The WMSCOG makes a big deal out of two things; keeping the Sabbath and celebrating the Passover. For both things, I understand they teach that the catholic church abolished them in the 4th century.

I am starting this thread to discuss the issue of the Sabbath day and about when and how it was abolished by the catholic church. I request wmscog members and former members to weigh in. 

[emil]

[emil]

There are a few aspects of this allegation that we can discuss in this thread.

1. Did the sabbath day change or was the Christian day of weekly worship established?

2. Is the Sabbath day as kept by the Jews applicable to us in the exact same way?

3. When was the change made and did those who were responsible, have the authority to do it?

PA has already provided some good info regarding the 1st and the "When" part of the 3rd.

[emil]

Disturbed has made some good points in this post:

 

Disturbed wrote:

Just my humble opinion & understanding…from what I learned "there". The 4th commandment is to Keep the Sabbath Day Holy….the 7th day belongs to God. How can we omit this command & treat others with more respect? Everyone knows God commanded us not to murder, steal, covet, etc…but what about this one?

It appears that "man" changed the day of worship according to how I understand the previous posts. Even before I joined the WMSCOG I always wondered about Sabbath day & what it really meant. I have asked pastors at Sunday churches about the Sabbath. They have acknowledged that the 7th day is Saturday but the reason they worship on Sunday is because of tradition. Whose tradition though? Can anyone give a verse in which Jesus said I'm changing from Sabbath (that I've kept my whole life since I'm Jewish) to Sunday? I personally cannot go to a Sunday church now that I'm out of WMSCOG because I don't think we're supposed to go on that day. I'm not persecuting or judging anyone who goes on Sunday, I'm just saying its not for me.

I would like to add some food for thought to her points.

1. While all commandments may be viewed as important, it may be seen that in all of Jesus' ministry, while he confirmed all the other commandments at various times, this is the only commandment he never explicitly confirmed. On the contrary, he was reviled for not keeping it in the manner expected. Every one of the remaining commandments is explicitly confirmed in the NT, often multiple times. Could it possibly be because all the other commandments were moral while the Sabbath commandment was ceremonial?

2. Jesus kept the Sabbath commandment himself (in the Spirit of the commandment) because he was a circumcised Jew and He was bound to keep the whole law in order that he could be the passover lamb without blemish.

3. When did God establish the Sabbath day? Was it from creation, or was it with the manna in Ex 16, or was it with the commandments in Ex 20?

4. When does the Sabbath day actually start and end? Does it start and end simultaneously in all of creation as many sabbatarians believe?

5. If we say, "Jesus didn't say to shift worship from Saturday to Sunday" we could say, "Jesus didn't say that we should stop being circumcised either." There are many things that Jesus could have or couldn't have said but we do not know. What we do know is that Jesus spent a lot of time teaching his apostles during his 3 year ministry as well as the 40 days after his resurrection. John says that there are many more things that Jesus did but it is not practical to write it all down. So I guess we'll have to accept that the apostles knew some things that are not written in the bible.

[PA]

Disturbed-

I would like to ask you or any Sabbath-keepers what they would tell Christians living in non-Western countries about keeping the Sabbath., considering that people in non-western countries don't operate under the same weekend system as people in the western world:  Saturday is typically a day of work for most people in much of the world.

If you were going to share the gospel with people in the East, would you insist that they have to keep the Sabbath on Saturday?  Would you feel that they should sacrifice their work for the fourth commandment?

[emil]

^ I have raised precisely this point in other threads and was going to come to it further into the discussion here. But I think the way you have expressed it is far more thought-provoking than I would have. Thanks.

[PA]

Also, I would like to add that Paul was living in a time when false teachers (Judaizers) were going around and telling people that they had to continue keeping OT commands.  Paul emphasized there was purpose to the Old Testament laws, but a time of fulfillment of those laws is now at hand.  Judaizers who taught that all people had to keep those old laws had an incomplete understanding of the purpose of those laws, and were even distorting the true and simple "faith-based" message of salvation (and even making a mockery of the work of Christ).  (Romans and Galatians are good reads to help understand this)

Plus, people from a non-Jewish background (who did not have the same customs as Jewish people, like the Sabbath) were being grafted into the church.  For Paul, and the apostles, making it easy for those gentiles to enter the faith was essential.  At the council of Jerusalem (Acts 15), the committee decided on what was important for the gentiles to follow as members of the Christian faith.  The Sabbath was not included on this list.  This demonstrates that it was simply no longer essential.

The apostles were indeed mere men, but they had authority.  What they wrote is authoritative.  The fact that Jesus did not say, "Here is my new command:  You do not have to keep the Sabbath any longer" was never necessary for Him to say.  The apostles, to whom he gave authority and through whom our Scriptures have come, make it clear that keeping the Sabbath is no longer essential.

Romans 14 is a good passage to examine as it demonstrates that Paul did not want there to be divisiveness between people who kept the Sabbath (in fact, he even calls them the "weak" Christians! and the people who did not keep the Sabbath – the "strong" Christians as he calls them.  

[PA]

Oh, Emil – I'm sorry – sometimes I skim the forum discussions way, way too quickly!  Thanks for mentioning that 🙂

[Simon]

I would argue christians SHOULD keep Saturday Sabbath as best as they can but to what extent is best they can is between them and God. One could argue Jesus expects you to be destitute if that is what it takes to obey every last thing, but I really don't think that is what he means when he talks about giving everything up for him.

[Love'n Honey]

After skimming, someone mentioned Jesus never explicitly described the Sabbath but was "rebuked" for not keeping it as expected. From this alone I would conclude we don't have to keep the Sabbath anymore. Just do good and save a life. Mark 3:4

But Jesus said he set an example for us. John 13:15. And A. Paul says he follows Christ's example. 1 Cor 11:1. He says to follow His example. Eph 5:1. Perhaps doing good, saving lives, and preaching on the Sabbath day is keeping the NT Sabbath.

[Simon]

Well technically he wasn rebuked because he didn't keep the pharisaic sabbath of course he didn't actually break it or he wouldn't be the unblemished lamb

[Love'n Honey]

Well technically Simon I didn't say He was rebuked.. I said He was "rebuked"..

[emil]

renita.payno wrote:

After skimming, someone mentioned Jesus never explicitly described the Sabbath but was "rebuked" for not keeping it as expected. From this alone I would conclude we don't have to keep the Sabbath anymore. Just do good and save a life. Mark 3:4

But Jesus said he set an example for us. John 13:15. And A. Paul says he follows Christ's example. 1 Cor 11:1. He says to follow His example. Eph 5:1. Perhaps doing good, saving lives, and preaching on the Sabbath day is keeping the NT Sabbath.

Slight correction Renita. I said Jesus did not explicitly confirm the Sabbath commandment while explicitly confirming all the others one or more times. Also I said "reviled" not "rebuked" but you may be right. Your word may be the more accurate word in this context since revile=abuse while rebuke=criticize.

The point I am making is that the covenant God made with Moses had a scope of time and place. With the death and resurrection of Jesus, we have become party to a new covenant. By this we are bound to follow the commands of Jesus which get precedence over the old covenant. Jesus followed the sabbath because he was a Jew and was bound to follow the law of Moses until his death. He commanded many things, abbreviated sometimes to the two commandments of loving God and neighbour. He did tell the rich young man what commandments to follow when he came seeking eternal life. Sabbath wasn't one of them. He told the pharisees how they were not following the Honour thy father and mother command too. And he told them that the Sabbath was made for man, not the other way around.

That is why I understand that the (time) scope of the Sabbath in terms of its letter is done and over. However, we still need to abide by its spirit. Taking what Jesus said about the sabbath being made for man, it is clear that the original commandment was designed by God to benefit man. What was the benefit? The fact that there are far more men who are employees than employers means that in a time of unorganized labour, there would be tremendous exploitation. This has been true over the ages. I believe that God wanted to ensure that humans were not exploited. The sabbath rest was primarily to ensure that we got 1 day rest out of 7. Obviously then, it was required to dedicate this day to the Lord.

I will say more on the (place and people) scope of the sabbath law in later posts in this thread. 

[Love'n Honey]

Obviously I was paraphrasing………………………

[Love'n Honey]

emil wrote:

Jesus followed the sabbath because he was a Jew and was bound to follow the law of Moses until his death.

 The Scripture does not support that at all. "Because He was a Jew", however, is thrown out the window when all the other Feasts are brought up. I don't see why it's ok to make this excuse for the Sabbath.

emil wrote:

He did tell the rich young man what commandments to follow when he came seeking eternal life. Sabbath wasn't one of them. 

 Neither was refraining from idolatry, worshipping God only, bearing false witness.. Matt 19:18-19 Question: Was His answer to the rich man specifically or was it for all who read the bible? If it's for everyone, then I can worship any god I want to and still go to heaven? Perhaps He wasn't just naming those things; maybe He was referring to the 10 Commandments in whole without saying them all. But even then, why would He leave out the 1st one of all things?

emil wrote:

He told the pharisees how they were not following the Honour thy father and mother command too. And he told them that the Sabbath was made for man, not the other way around.

 The Sabbath was made for man's blessing. All the commands for made for man's blessings. Worshipping only the true God is for man, not for God. God doesn't need us to worship Him… [or maybe He does. Perhaps the only way He can exist if people worship Him. Once He is no longer woshipped He will disappear and new God will take over.. Lol, jk… maybe not..]

[emil]

renita.payno wrote:

 

 The Scripture does not support that at all. "Because He was a Jew", however, is thrown out the window when all the other Feasts are brought up. I don't see why it's ok to make this excuse for the Sabbath.

I don't know what exactly you are trying to say. Can you explain?

renita.payno wrote:

Neither was refraining from idolatry, worshipping God only, bearing false witness.. Matt 19:18-19 Question: Was His answer to the rich man specifically or was it for all who read the bible? If it's for everyone, then I can worship any god I want to and still go to heaven? Perhaps He wasn't just naming those things; maybe He was referring to the 10 Commandments in whole without saying them all. But even then, why would He leave out the 1st one of all things?

Bearing false witness was included with the young man. About worshiping God alone, Jesus mentioned it other times. My point is that Jesus explicitly confirmed all the other commandments except the Sabbath at various times in the Gospels. I mentioned the story of the young man only because it was one place where many commandments were mentioned at the same time. So the question should be "why did he only leave out the Sabbath?"

renita.payno wrote:

The Sabbath was made for man's blessing. All the commands for made for man's blessings. Worshipping only the true God is for man, not for God. God doesn't need us to worship Him… [or maybe He does. Perhaps the only way He can exist if people worship Him. Once He is no longer woshipped He will disappear and new God will take over.. Lol, jk… maybe not..]

Going by the bible, the only commandment with a blessing attached is the one to honour your father and mother.

Jesus specifically said the sabbath was made for man. Obviously it means for his benefit. He didn't say that about any other commandment. At a time when slavery was rampant, the Sabbath commandment forced the Jews to ensure that their slaves got one day of rest every week. You say all the commandments were for man's blessing. Paul does not agree. He says the law was a curse – Gal 3:10 and Gal 3:13

We are losing sight of the fact that we have a loving God who wants to save us and sent His Son to take up the curse of the law so we could be free from it. If we keep clinging to the old covenant, we reject the saving grace of Jesus.

[Simon]

The jews were given to the pharisees forsaking the law of life for a law th4ey could not live by (curse)

[emil]

Simon wrote:

The jews were given to the pharisees forsaking the law of life for a law th4ey could not live by (curse)

lost in translation to plain old English 🙂

[Simon]

That was plain modern English

[emil]

Sorry I did not understand "The jews were given to the pharisees"

Did you mean "laws"?

And can you clarify what the rest of your sentence means?

[Simon]

The Jews forsook God and were allowed to be decived by false prophets who gave them new laws to follow instead of God's laws

[Love'n Honey]

emil wrote:

renita.payno wrote:

 

 The Scripture does not support that at all. "Because He was a Jew", however, is thrown out the window when all the other Feasts are brought up. I don't see why it's ok to make this excuse for the Sabbath.

I don't know what exactly you are trying to say. Can you explain?

The bible doesn't say He kept Sabbath because He was a Jew. He didn't even keep the Sabbath the Jewish way. Maybe up until He began His ministry He kept the Jewish Sabbath because He was a Jew.

Is communion communion with orange soda and cheezits? If I walked into a Christian church with orange soda and cheezits on the day for communion, is that keeping communion? And if it is, it's not the Christian way so it's not the Christian communion. It's a different communion.

If we're going to say He kept Sabbath we must agree that Jesus kept a different Sabbath. Anything different than what has been taught is a different teaching/gospel. Where is the record of Jesus keeping the Feast of UL because He was a Jew?