- Topic
I would like to know what does the WMS teach concerning John 5:18?
16. So, because Jesus was doing these things on the Sabbath, the Jewish leaders began to persecute him. 17. In his defense Jesus said to them, “My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I too am working.” 18. For this reason they tried all the more to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.
emil wrote:
renita.payno wrote:
What many people overlook are the definitions of 'A' and 'THE'. That is very important. 2 Cor 11:4 speaks about a Jesus and the Jesus. The Ap. didn't preach about A Jesus. They preached about THE Jesus; THE only man on earth who was not just a man but God in the flesh. So, if anyone preaches that we should keep A day as the Sabbath is preaching a false teaching because the bible says to keep THE 7th day as THE Sabbath. Ex 12:1-2 is when God gave Moses the first month not the 1st day BUT I am a bit confused about Ex 12:21. After God finished speaking to Moses, it says 'then Moses told them to do all this stuff at once.' It doesn't say, 'when the 10th day came' or 'after 14 days had passed' or anything to suggest that time had gone by before they prepared for the PO. Immediately following Gods words, it says 'then Moses.. at once..'. This could bring someone, like me, to think that the day God told Moses how to keep PO was actually the 14th day. I mean, reading it without adding anything, that's what it looks like.
I am not disputing the difference between "a" and "the". Look at how the term "the 7th day" is used. It is relative to a starting point. For example "Plant this shoot in a pot indoors. Keep watering it for 6 days. On THE 7th day, uproot it and plant it out in your garden." It is not by itself an absolute day. That is what I mean.
In fact, when you quote Ex 12:1-2, how many of us are actually following those months?
The same way, for people who live in places where a Saturday holiday is not a norm, their week begins on a different day. To insist that they should not work on Saturday is exactly the kind of lack of compassion of the Pharisees that Jesus condemned. I know for a fact that many wmscog members in my country don't have a holiday on Saturdays. What does the wmscog want to do about it? Their only option is to stop working. Then how do they tithe?
You don't need to use those months to understand that they started keeping a 7 day week when God gave them the command. And yes, there is a starting point. We all know there is a starting point. But we don't get to choose the starting point. This is where people make the ignorant argument that Tuesday can be the Sabbath as long as I work for the other 6 days. No, God made Sunday the 1st day of the week. He didn't call it Sunday, he called it the 1st day. And as many centuries went by, someone came up with the idea of naming the 1st day Sunday. Unless I read something wrong, the 1st day of the week was not named Monday. And according to the NC Sabbath as demonstrated by Jesus, it is ok to work on the Sabbath even though that is contridictory to the very meaning of the word Sabbath.
if you have nothing to tithe then should God punish you for that? If all we are supposed to tithe today is money for arguements sake, and you have no money, then how can you give money to God? You can't. And if God will punish you for not giving what you don't have then that's very unfair. Now let's say tithe is not just about money. Abram gave a tenth of everything to Melchizedek. So, should I give a tenth of my food, clothing, electronics, etc. to God for my tithe? What exactly does tithing pertain to today? If it's just money then God shouldn't punish you for not giving money when you have no money.
I don't think God wants our money, he has no use for it, aside from that money is the root of all evil, so how can true God care for that. He wants us 100% not our 10%, In my opinion.
I am sorry my sentence about tithing was understood differently than what I meant. It was not my case that people should tithe even when they don't have a job. I was just saying that the wmscog here does not want this woman to give up her job because then they wouldn't receive tithes from her.
Coming to Abram's tithe, we must understand that he was giving 10% of his produce. Our tithe should apply to everything that we earn. My earnings are through my wages and through my investments. I tithe based on my total earnings from all sources. Your food, clothing and electronics is your expense not your earnings. They are bought from your earnings on which you already gave your tithe. If you have a farm producing corn, then you give 10% of that. If you breed horses, then 10% of that too. Hope you get what I mean.
And yes Renita, we don't get to choose the starting point. God chooses it for us. That does not necessarily mean it has to be the same for all. God did not make Sunday or Monday the first day of the week. The first day is and always was arbitrarily chosen by man perhaps through inspiration from God. It was not uniform but changed from culture to culture. Many cultures even used other number of days for a week. Almost all our concept of measure of time has come from our solar system in which God chose to put earth.
no god established the days of the week himself actually.
The sun moon and stars were created for the purpose of knowing gods appointed times seems like his calendar trumps any calender made by man
Tell me what makes you say that? Where did God specify the days of the week and what astronomical alignment marks any day of the week?
The revolution of the moon around the earth times the lunar calendar. The revolution of the earth around the sun times the solar year. What times the week? As far as I know, it is an approximation for 1/4 the lunar month.
Kim wrote:
I don't think God wants our money, he has no use for it, aside from that money is the root of all evil, so how can true God care for that. He wants us 100% not our 10%, In my opinion.
The WMSCOG says God doesn't want our money, He wants our hearts. However, tithing is a command, right?
emil wrote:
I am sorry my sentence about tithing was understood differently than what I meant. It was not my case that people should tithe even when they don't have a job. I was just saying that the wmscog here does not want this woman to give up her job because then they wouldn't receive tithes from her.
Coming to Abram's tithe, we must understand that he was giving 10% of his produce. Our tithe should apply to everything that we earn. My earnings are through my wages and through my investments. I tithe based on my total earnings from all sources. Your food, clothing and electronics is your expense not your earnings. They are bought from your earnings on which you already gave your tithe. If you have a farm producing corn, then you give 10% of that. If you breed horses, then 10% of that too. Hope you get what I mean.
That makes sense. That make a whole lot of sense. Thanks. =)
emil wrote:
Tell me what makes you say that? Where did God specify the days of the week and what astronomical alignment marks any day of the week?
The revolution of the moon around the earth times the lunar calendar. The revolution of the earth around the sun times the solar year. What times the week? As far as I know, it is an approximation for 1/4 the lunar month.
Lev 23:15-16 We can see that a week is 7 days long. 50 days equals 7 weeks plus 1 day after the Sabbath. 50 days minus 1 day after the Sabbath is 49 days. 49 days divided by 7 weeks equals 7 days in a week.
emil wrote:
Tell me what makes you say that? Where did God specify the days of the week and what astronomical alignment marks any day of the week?
The revolution of the moon around the earth times the lunar calendar. The revolution of the earth around the sun times the solar year. What times the week? As far as I know, it is an approximation for 1/4 the lunar month.
God never established a solar calendar that is from man.
The Days are defined in Exodus 16
renita.payno wrote:
Lev 23:15-16 We can see that a week is 7 days long. 50 days equals 7 weeks plus 1 day after the Sabbath. 50 days minus 1 day after the Sabbath is 49 days. 49 days divided by 7 weeks equals 7 days in a week.
No argument with that. That doesn't disprove my contention that one day in 7 is to be set aside for God. They chose to start counting from Sunday and made Saturday their last day. Moreover, Lev is a book of rules and regulations. Look at it and see how many of these none of us follow.
Simon wrote:
emil wrote:
Tell me what makes you say that? Where did God specify the days of the week and what astronomical alignment marks any day of the week?
The revolution of the moon around the earth times the lunar calendar. The revolution of the earth around the sun times the solar year. What times the week? As far as I know, it is an approximation for 1/4 the lunar month.
God never established a solar calendar that is from man.
The Days are defined in Exodus 16
You miss my point. What I was trying to say is that there is no natural phenomenon that marks the 7th day.
Regarding Exodus 16, can you clarify if this was the first time in their history that the Israelites started counting the 7 days of the week?
There is genesis says the stars sun and moon mark the appointed times.
And it doesn’t matter what anyone did before GOD set the week in exodus 16.
At the time anything the israelites did would be lost in the 400 years of slavery anyways
Correct. The appointed times are marked by the stars, moon and sun. What configuration marks the start of the week? You said something similar earlier and when I asked this question, you said it is God's calendar. When I ask about that you go back to the stars, moon and sun. So we keep going around in circles. Reminds me of that old song "There's a hole in the bucket."
About Ex 16, my point is that the Israelites were already following 7 days a week before Ex 16. So one cannot just use Ex 16 to say God set the week.
Israel had many other periods of exile even later when they were no more than slaves as they had been in Egypt.
emil wrote:
renita.payno wrote:
Lev 23:15-16 We can see that a week is 7 days long. 50 days equals 7 weeks plus 1 day after the Sabbath. 50 days minus 1 day after the Sabbath is 49 days. 49 days divided by 7 weeks equals 7 days in a week.
No argument with that. That doesn't disprove my contention that one day in 7 is to be set aside for God. They chose to start counting from Sunday and made Saturday their last day. Moreover, Lev is a book of rules and regulations. Look at it and see how many of these none of us follow.
emil wrote:
Tell me what makes you say that? Where did God specify the days of the week and what astronomical alignment marks any day of the week?
The revolution of the moon around the earth times the lunar calendar. The revolution of the earth around the sun times the solar year. What times the week? As far as I know, it is an approximation for 1/4 the lunar month.
The reason I quoted that verse is answer your question, "What times the week?" Lev being a book of rules & regs doesn't change the fact that God clearly described a 7 day week. As for those people who decided to have an 8 day week, they are wrong IAW God. Aside from how many days are in a month or how many months are in a year or when a year/month begins, we can see from those passages in Lev that a week, according to Jehovah, is 7 days long. I don't know if the stars, moon, or sun have anything to do with it being 7 days. But what I do see is God has described a week as 7 days.
Ez 20:12 says that God gave us His Sabbaths. So it is not us who set aside a day for God but God who set aside a day of rest for us. To say "set aside a day for God" is implying that [A] we get to choose which day is the Sabbath and we are doing something for God by keeping the Sabbath.
There are plenty of places that have changed their name but have the same address. Pat and Oscar's restaraunts are now simply called O's; however the menu has not changed and neither has their location. If I say today is Lunes, am I wrong? No.. If I say today is Ghdiha, am I wrong? If 5 days go by and I say today is Ghdiha then I am either wrong or confused. Then 12 days after that I say again today is Ghdiha. Very wrong and very confused. There are always 7 days in a week according to God. So if I say today is Ghdiha and 7 days from now say today is Ghdiha and so on and so forth, Monday has now become Ghdiha in my eyes. That is what happened a long time ago. Some years ago the 2nd day of the week was referred to as Monday consistently until today. Does that mean the 2nd day of the week has disappeared? No, it just means we don't call it the 2nd day anymore. Today you call it Monday, I call it Ghdiha, and now we call Pat & Oscar's just O's.
Emil, where do you see in Scripture that people were using a 7 day week system before God described a week as 7 days?
emil wrote:
Correct. The appointed times are marked by the stars, moon and sun. What configuration marks the start of the week? You said something similar earlier and when I asked this question, you said it is God's calendar. When I ask about that you go back to the stars, moon and sun. So we keep going around in circles. Reminds me of that old song "There's a hole in the bucket."
About Ex 16, my point is that the Israelites were already following 7 days a week before Ex 16. So one cannot just use Ex 16 to say God set the week.
Israel had many other periods of exile even later when they were no more than slaves as they had been in Egypt.
Gen 1:13-15 doesn't specify that the stars and such determine the start of a week. But God did say in Ex 12:1-3 this is the beginning of the year. Would it make sense that God would begin their "new" calendar in the beginning of the week? Of course it does! It happens all the time. A new year doesn't always begin on the same day every year. Like I said before, I am confused about exactly what day God gave Moses this "new" calendar. But in tracing backward with the Ressurection and the naming of the days of the week, it appears very heavily that Sunday was once called the 1st day of the week from the day Moses received the calendar from God.
emil wrote:
Correct. The appointed times are marked by the stars, moon and sun. What configuration marks the start of the week? You said something similar earlier and when I asked this question, you said it is God's calendar. When I ask about that you go back to the stars, moon and sun. So we keep going around in circles. Reminds me of that old song "There's a hole in the bucket."
About Ex 16, my point is that the Israelites were already following 7 days a week before Ex 16. So one cannot just use Ex 16 to say God set the week.
Israel had many other periods of exile even later when they were no more than slaves as they had been in Egypt.
The Israelites under egyptian rule followed a ten day week
We can only conclude God forced the Sabbath on the day he wanted it, otherwise if he didn't care he'd be a hypocrite not letting people choose their own in the OT
What are the set times in Dan 7:25? Would the Sabbath be included?
I asked what configuration marks the start of the week in response to Simon's statement that the appointed times are marked by the sun, moon and stars.
I don't know the history of the 7 day week but a brief search revealed that it started with the babylonians. You conclude that God forced the sabbath on the day he wanted. I don't conclude that. I conclude that he wanted us to ensure a day of rest to recoup our bodies and dedicate the day to Him.
People cannot just choose their day of rest. It is not an individual choice. It is societal. To me, Sabbath means a day of rest dedicated to God. It does not define a specific day. It is the last day of the week based on your circumstances which are usually determined by the social environment in which you live. My God is a loving God and has placed me in the place I live and the place I work. It is His plan that I am where I am. In a previous post, I have already stated a situation in which a person is unable to keep the sabbath on Saturday and asked what would Jesus say to that. I can give an example again to get us all to visualize how Jesus would think.
If you then tell me that God wants me to keep Saturday as my day of rest, then that is a confused and confusing god.
Here is the thing. Those who insist that we must set Saturday as the Sabbath day are doing so either because they believe that the apostles continued to keep the sabbath on Saturday even after Jesus' death and resurrection or they know that the apostles shifted to Sunday but believe that the apostles were wrong in doing so.
Simon wrote:
We can only conclude God forced the Sabbath on the day he wanted it, otherwise if he didn't care he'd be a hypocrite not letting people choose their own in the OT
I conclude that God showed them that the day the manna didn't come, that was the day to rest. I also think that He wanted the majority of Israelites to take the same day as the Sabbath as a mark showing other nations that they were united in worshipping God. But the priests didn't get the Sabbath as a day off, and since I believe God would allow them a different day off, I conclude that the day itself is not as significant as the wmscog would have us believe.
The priests weren’t allowed a day of period
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