- Topic
I would like to know what does the WMS teach concerning John 5:18?
16. So, because Jesus was doing these things on the Sabbath, the Jewish leaders began to persecute him. 17. In his defense Jesus said to them, “My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I too am working.” 18. For this reason they tried all the more to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.
God required all of israel to set aside the day we call saturday as an appointed time even priests they just did it differently
emil wrote:
People cannot just choose their day of rest. It is not an individual choice. It is societal. To me, Sabbath means a day of rest dedicated to God. It does not define a specific day. It is the last day of the week based on your circumstances which are usually determined by the social environment in which you live. My God is a loving God and has placed me in the place I live and the place I work. It is His plan that I am where I am. In a previous post, I have already stated a situation in which a person is unable to keep the sabbath on Saturday and asked what would Jesus say to that. I can give an example again to get us all to visualize how Jesus would think.
If you then tell me that God wants me to keep Saturday as my day of rest, then that is a confused and confusing god.
Here is the thing. Those who insist that we must set Saturday as the Sabbath day are doing so either because they believe that the apostles continued to keep the sabbath on Saturday even after Jesus' death and resurrection or they know that the apostles shifted to Sunday but believe that the apostles were wrong in doing so.
God's laws are not about what they mean to you or what you think it should be. They are about what God thinks and what God says they should be. There are so many examples in the bible about what people think God wants but came up very wrong. The perception of the days of the week are societal. Yes. But perception is NOT reality. Though we treat perception as reality [it looks like you cheated on the test so you cheated] that does NOT make it the truth. Just because some people decide to start their week on Monday and keep Sunday as the Sabbath doesn't mean that Monday is the day God started the week. Just because something is common doesn't make it ok. Even if you decide Wednesday is the start of the week but keep Friday as the Sabbath because it's a day you set aside for God, which sounds like you're doing Him a favor, that doesn't make it the truth.
I insist Saturday is the Sabbath because after Jehovah gave Moses the laws, the Sabbath was one of them and was described as the 7th day of the week. When Jesus ressurected, the day He rose was described as the day after the Sabbath. Even after His ressurection [way after since the NT wasn't written for years later] the Sabbath is still described as the 7th day of the week. The apostles breaking bread on the 1st day does NOT make it the Sabbath. It does mean they ate bread on the 1st day, however. And looking into history and the dictionary [which is becoming less and less reliable with all these new "words" added] tell us that Sunday is the 1st day of the week. Main stream Christians agree that Sunday is the 1st day of the week in celebrating Easter.
genny wrote:
Simon wrote:
We can only conclude God forced the Sabbath on the day he wanted it, otherwise if he didn't care he'd be a hypocrite not letting people choose their own in the OT
I conclude that God showed them that the day the manna didn't come, that was the day to rest. I also think that He wanted the majority of Israelites to take the same day as the Sabbath as a mark showing other nations that they were united in worshipping God. But the priests didn't get the Sabbath as a day off, and since I believe God would allow them a different day off, I conclude that the day itself is not as significant as the wmscog would have us believe.
The bible does describe the Sabbath and a sabbath. The Sabbath is the day of rest given to man by God. But a sabbath is simply a day of rest, not neccesarily the 7th day of the week. This sabbath can be any day. Ex 16:23 & Ex 16:29
emil wrote:
renita.payno wrote:
What many people overlook are the definitions of 'A' and 'THE'. That is very important. 2 Cor 11:4 speaks about a Jesus and the Jesus. The Ap. didn't preach about A Jesus. They preached about THE Jesus; THE only man on earth who was not just a man but God in the flesh. So, if anyone preaches that we should keep A day as the Sabbath is preaching a false teaching because the bible says to keep THE 7th day as THE Sabbath. Ex 12:1-2 is when God gave Moses the first month not the 1st day BUT I am a bit confused about Ex 12:21. After God finished speaking to Moses, it says 'then Moses told them to do all this stuff at once.' It doesn't say, 'when the 10th day came' or 'after 14 days had passed' or anything to suggest that time had gone by before they prepared for the PO. Immediately following Gods words, it says 'then Moses.. at once..'. This could bring someone, like me, to think that the day God told Moses how to keep PO was actually the 14th day. I mean, reading it without adding anything, that's what it looks like.
I am not disputing the difference between "a" and "the". Look at how the term "the 7th day" is used. It is relative to a starting point. For example "Plant this shoot in a pot indoors. Keep watering it for 6 days. On THE 7th day, uproot it and plant it out in your garden." It is not by itself an absolute day. That is what I mean.
In my mind I was thinking something about this isn't the same as what I said. Then it dawned on me! You're missing an important word.Week. You're totally right, the7th day from the day you started watering the plant could be any day of the week. What is the 10th month of the year? October. Everyone who knows their months in order in English will tell you the 10th month of the year is October. But if we started a project today, the 10th month we speak of becomes… wait for it… RELATIVE! 10 months from today is January. But January is the 1st month of the standard year. What you described is the 7th day of a relative week. This is probably where we can agree to disagree. Correct me if I'm wrong, but you believe in a relative Sabbath while I believe there's a standard Sabbath, right? =)
You are absolutely right Renita. Let me give you some scenarios.
I am from India. Most people in India have just one day off from work. For many, this is Sunday. Others (depending on where the place of employment is) could be Monday, Wednesday, Thursday, etc. I selected those days because I know people who have their weekly off on those days. The only people I know who have a Saturday off are a few of those who also have Sunday off. That would be probably less than 10% of the people. Now what are my options for keeping sabbath? If I insist on keeping a Saturday sabbath in the spirit I believe God wants us to, I would need to have a job that gives me a Saturday off. If I did not have that, my other option would be to take up employment. What would you have me do? What would Jesus have said about it if he were physically in our midst?
My younger daughter is in Qatar. It is a country in which everyone has a Friday weekly off. A few also have an additional Thursday off. My daughter works in a job where she has no fixed weekly holiday. She gets 8 days off in a month. These days are scattered. What would you have her do? What would Jesus tell her to do if he were at her location today?
Think about the compassion that Jesus showed during his 3 years of ministry. Don't look at the situation from the eyes of a affluent West where you can take your pick of jobs and they all come with a Saturday off. Is heaven only for such as those?
I believe in the sabbath commandment. I believe that God wants us to dedicate at least one day in the week for rest and for Him. That is the sipirt of the commandment. In God eyes all days are equal. For the Jews, Saturday was the last day of the week, coming after 6 days of toil. Not so for people elsewhere in the world today.
One more piece of information to digest. As far as I know, in the middle east countries, all churches have their main worship services on Fridays.
Saturday was made the last day of the week by God not the Jews so I find it hard to believe it is arbitrary
The calendar the the Israelites used the 400 years before the exodus was the Egyptian calendar:
The ancient civil Egyptian calendar had a year that was 365 days long and was divided into 12 months of 30 days each, plus five extra days (epagomenae, from Greek ἐπαγόμεναι) at the end of the year. The months were divided into three weeks of ten days each. Because the ancient Egyptian year was almost a quarter of a day shorter than the solar year and stellar events therefore "wandered" through the calendar, it has been referred to as the annus vagus, or "wandering year".
Simon that is a bit of a chicken and egg situation. The problem is that Exodus was actually written about 1000 years after the events happened. So its hard to say with certainty whether they were already following the 7 day week before that or not. The 7 day week is introduced in Genesis itself, which was also written around the same time I guess.
I believe Jesus's account of when the Torah was written before modern theories
and we do know the Israelites didn't keep a seven day week. as cited already, and if you want to argue they keep the one God established in Genesis you STILL aknowledge God's providence in the calendar including weeks
No doubt. I have no problem with that.
Simon I would really appreciate your views on the two scenarios I have given.
Just noticed there was an error in one setence. "my other option would be to take up employment" should have been "my other option would be not to take up employment"
As far as your scenarios, I think you should find any job you can take and worship God on any day that is available until you can find another job that will allow you to take Saturdays off. Worshipping God can happen any day. But you cannot call any day of the week the Sabbath. You have the option to worship God any day you want. But you do not have the option to call which ever day the Sabbath because that would be changing God's laws. And only God can do that.
I understand that sabbath means rest day. After 6 days of work, God rested. He commanded us to do likewise.
No, sabbath means rest. The Sabbath day is a command from God and I believe Jesus when came, He changed how to keep the Sabbath but not when. There's no Scripture supporting Jesus neither the Apostles changed when the Sabbath is.
renita.payno wrote:
No, sabbath means rest. The Sabbath day is a command from God and I believe Jesus when came, He changed how to keep the Sabbath but not when. There's no Scripture supporting Jesus neither the Apostles changed when the Sabbath is.
That depends on what is your definition of Sabbath. There is scriptural evidence that the apostles worshipped on Sunday (Acts 20:7). There is historical evidence in the writings of the early church fathers to support the fact that Sunday was widely adopted as the day of worship by Christendom in the first century itself.
Yes, Sunday was adopted but that doesn't make it FROM GOD. Christmas was adopted but that's not from Jesus either. Like I said many times before, breaking bread on a particular day doesn't make it the Sabbath. Worhsipping on Wednesday doesn't make it the Sabbath. The fact that God said "Today is the Sabbath" makes it the Sabbath. I included the Apostles because A. Paul said "Follow my example as I follow Christ." 1 Co 11:1 What word or group of words surrounding or included in Acts 20:7 implies worship? Breaking bread is not one of them. Breaking bread means to take some bread, break it, and more than likely eat it. I don't mean to break this down in such a way to make you think I view you as someone stupid. But I am breaking this down so you can see plainly what I am saying. Breaking bread does not constitute the Sabbath day.
1 Cor 10:16 speaks of breaking bread but isn't referring to the Sabbath.
emil wrote:
renita.payno wrote:
No, sabbath means rest. The Sabbath day is a command from God and I believe Jesus when came, He changed how to keep the Sabbath but not when. There's no Scripture supporting Jesus neither the Apostles changed when the Sabbath is.
That depends on what is your definition of Sabbath. There is scriptural evidence that the apostles worshipped on Sunday (Acts 20:7). There is historical evidence in the writings of the early church fathers to support the fact that Sunday was widely adopted as the day of worship by Christendom in the first century itself.
Acts 20:7 says nothing about worship at all.
Acts 2:42 and 46
The breaking of bread was a commemoration of the last supper which Jesus ordered and it was the central ingredient of their worship.
How can we know breaking bread from breaking bread
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