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I would like to know what does the WMS teach concerning John 5:18?
16. So, because Jesus was doing these things on the Sabbath, the Jewish leaders began to persecute him. 17. In his defense Jesus said to them, “My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I too am working.” 18. For this reason they tried all the more to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.
One is the context. For instance, the verse in Acts 20:7 says – On the first day of the week they came together to break bread. It goes on to describe that Paul preached to them. The liturgy was just evolving then.
The second is the writings of the ECF (early church fathers) that explain what happened in the early church.
Just a bit for philosophical thought here. The commandments were given in Israel. I understand the sabbath keeping as done by them was from Friday sundown until Saturday sundown. I am not sure of this but I understand most Saturday sabbath insisting Christians (sorry I use this for want of a better term) keep the sabbath during their waking hours on Saturday.
As we move westward from Israel, sunrise is starting later and later. By the time we get to California, Saturday is well nigh finished in Israel.
Now comes the interesting part. Go further west to Hawai or Alaska and you are close to the international date line. Finally you get to American Samoa. It is Saturday. It is the same time in Samoa and Tonga, just next to American Samoa across the date line. But it isn't Saturday. It is Sunday. Even worse, Kiribati is East of American Samoa but it is across the date line in the Eastern hemisphere. It is Sunday there too. We have a situation where those islands are neighbours but one is on Saturday while it is Sunday in the other. The International date line is pretty recent as compared to biblical dates. Countries like Kiribati and Samoa switched to the Eastern hemisphere for trading convenience in the late 20th century.
Now who decided which day is Saturday or Sunday for these countries? The ambiguity arises from the alignment of the dateline. Who decided when it is Saturday or Sunday in the United States? When the International date line was drawn, they chose to draw it through the Pacific. It was probably because of the close trade link between the United States and Europe. They could very well have chosen the Atlantic to split hemispheres. In that case, the day you now know as Saturday in the USA would not have been Saturday at all. This was a decision taken by man thousands of years after the commandments were given.
Let me go a little further and give you an example of what happened in the Philippines. Until 1844, Philippines was placed east of the dateline because of close links with Mexico (both Spanish connection). They then shifted to west of the dateline.
Thus it came to pass that in Manila there was Monday, December 30th 1844 and after midnight, the next day was Wednesday, January 1st 1845. So the day they worship on (being a predominantly Catholic country) and call Sunday now would have been Saturday if they had stayed on the eastern side of the dateline. Or, if you consider that they were already worshipping on Sunday before, then that day has now become Monday if the sequence was kept.
My point: Date and time measures have kept evolving. The Sabbath was made for man. Man was not made for the Sabbath. God wanted to make sure that even the slaves of the Israelites would be given 1 day rest in 7.
emil wrote:
Acts 2:42 and 46
The breaking of bread was a commemoration of the last supper which Jesus ordered and it was the central ingredient of their worship.
Everyday they broke bread. So, everyday was a commemoration of the last supper? And where's the wine? The last supper wasn't only bread. 1 Cor 11:23-26 looks more like a commemoration of the Lord' Supper than Acts 2:42 and Acts 2:46. In Acts, they were fellowshipping. Praying together, worshipping together which can be done any day. Just because someone worships on a Monday that doesn't make it the Sabbath. There still is no verse that says what they did was on the new Sabbath day. When Jesus preached and healed people it said it was the Sabbath. Very plain. When Jesus took bread and wine, it was called the Passover. Very plain. Jesus said to pray in His name. Plain yet again. It is plain to see that even after Jesus rose, the 1st day was still just the 1st day and not the Sabbath. No where in the bible [other than Gen and the explanation of when the Sabbath is] does it say "the 7th day" in regards to the day of the week. The 7th day of the week is always expressed [other than the times forementioned] as the Sabbath even after Jesus rose. If the 1st day is the new Sabbath, then it should have been expressed that way. But it's not. It's called the 1st day even after Jesus rose. If there is no more specific Sabbath then why is the 7th day still described as the Sabbath after Jesus rose?
emil wrote:
One is the context. For instance, the verse in Acts 20:7 says – On the first day of the week they came together to break bread. It goes on to describe that Paul preached to them. The liturgy was just evolving then.
The second is the writings of the ECF (early church fathers) that explain what happened in the early church.
No. It goes on to describe that Paul spoke all night until morning. Not specifically preaching. Without adding to this verse, Paul could be talking about anything. This appears to be fellowshipping. When morning came, they left. At least 3 days after they left it goes on to say Paul speaks about how he's been preaching diligently. And the Pentecost is coming up.
They started using the term "The Lord's Day"
There is a lot more I can say about this matter but I don't want to discuss that on this forum which is dedicated to examining the wmscog. Any comments on the shifting Saturday?
That’s over analyzing things the earth is 360 degrees every fifteen degrees a new time zone the calendar remains ultimately consistent it’s not like any where arbitrarily decided to break from the basic pattern.
emil wrote:
Just a bit for philosophical thought here. The commandments were given in Israel. I understand the sabbath keeping as done by them was from Friday sundown until Saturday sundown. I am not sure of this but I understand most Saturday sabbath insisting Christians (sorry I use this for want of a better term) keep the sabbath during their waking hours on Saturday.
As we move westward from Israel, sunrise is starting later and later. By the time we get to California, Saturday is well nigh finished in Israel.
Now comes the interesting part. Go further west to Hawai or Alaska and you are close to the international date line. Finally you get to American Samoa. It is Saturday. It is the same time in Samoa and Tonga, just next to American Samoa across the date line. But it isn't Saturday. It is Sunday. Even worse, Kiribati is East of American Samoa but it is across the date line in the Eastern hemisphere. It is Sunday there too. We have a situation where those islands are neighbours but one is on Saturday while it is Sunday in the other. The International date line is pretty recent as compared to biblical dates. Countries like Kiribati and Samoa switched to the Eastern hemisphere for trading convenience in the late 20th century.
Now who decided which day is Saturday or Sunday for these countries? The ambiguity arises from the alignment of the dateline. Who decided when it is Saturday or Sunday in the United States? When the International date line was drawn, they chose to draw it through the Pacific. It was probably because of the close trade link between the United States and Europe. They could very well have chosen the Atlantic to split hemispheres. In that case, the day you now know as Saturday in the USA would not have been Saturday at all. This was a decision taken by man thousands of years after the commandments were given.
Even before the international date line was "established", it couldn't possibly be the same day because of where the sun is located at any given time. In the bible, a full day is from sunrise to sunrise. If where you are the sun is setting, your day is ending. But when your sun is setting, another person's day is beginning because where they are the sun is rising. It might not have been called the international date line but the concept was still there.
emil wrote:
They started using the term "The Lord's Day"
There is a lot more I can say about this matter but I don't want to discuss that on this forum which is dedicated to examining the wmscog. Any comments on the shifting Saturday?
Rev 1:10 is the only verse that says the Lord's Day. Explain how that's the Sabbath?
emil wrote:
They started using the term "The Lord's Day"
There is a lot more I can say about this matter but I don't want to discuss that on this forum which is dedicated to examining the wmscog. Any comments on the shifting Saturday?
1 Cor 5:5 is referring to judgement day. You're not saved on the Sabbath. You're saved on judgement day. 2 Cor 1:14 isn't deliberate. 1 Th 5:1-2 is speaking about judgement day. The Sabbath doesn't come like a theif in the night. 2 Th 2:2 is about judgement day. The Sabbath has come many times but judgement has not. 2 Pe 3:1-3 Peter is speaking about the last days and judgement day because in 2 Pe 3:10 he says the day of the Lord comes like a theif. The Sabbath does not.
I find this to be ridiculous.
Lord's day
only once, in Rev. 1:10, was in the early Christian ages used to denote the first day of the week, which commemorated the Lord's resurrection. There is every reason to conclude that John thus used the name. (See SABBATH T0003170.)
This comes from the "dictionary" on Bible Gateway. No where in that chapter do you read the first day of the week. How can you say that the Lord's Day is denoted as the 1st day of week when it's not?! Talk about adding to Scripture… Neither was Jesus' resurrection mentioned in the chapter.
I could very well ask you to show me where in the bible it says that the apostles kept the sabbath on Saturday after Jesus' resurrection. As I said, there are many other facets to this debate that are out of place on such a forum and I don't want to go into.
For both Simon and Renita, the point I am making with the international date line is that it may be true that in Israel there has been an unbroken 7 day week for thousands of years. But that is not true for the whole world. I gave you an example of a place where a day of week was lost, thus changing which day Saturday would be. There are other examples of this too. I also stated that the day you call Saturday in the US could very well have not been Saturday if they chose to draw the IDL through the Atlantic instead of the Pacific.
that’s really just a red herring
Not really. It is linked with the belief that the sabbath day appointed by God has remained unbroken through the centuries.
your misled by your own argument
The entirety of earth has ben kept consistent
You lost me there
emil wrote:
I could very well ask you to show me where in the bible it says that the apostles kept the sabbath on Saturday after Jesus' resurrection. As I said, there are many other facets to this debate that are out of place on such a forum and I don't want to go into.
For both Simon and Renita, the point I am making with the international date line is that it may be true that in Israel there has been an unbroken 7 day week for thousands of years. But that is not true for the whole world. I gave you an example of a place where a day of week was lost, thus changing which day Saturday would be. There are other examples of this too. I also stated that the day you call Saturday in the US could very well have not been Saturday if they chose to draw the IDL through the Atlantic instead of the Pacific.
I have been consistent in my arguement that Saturday is the Sabbath day. I have not, however, claimed that the Apostles kept the Sabbath after Jesus rose. I only argue that Saturday is the Sabbath.
It doesn't matter what other people did because they didn't have true God to give them the right way to calculate time. It's like saying, "well those guy who don't worship Jehovah are sacrificing cats." And? Plus, no day of the week is ever lost or gained.
emil wrote:
Not really. It is linked with the belief that the sabbath day appointed by God has remained unbroken through the centuries.
The Sabbath has been broken. But the day which God appointed the Sabbath has not changed.
What's red herring?
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