[Love'n Honey]

I approached one of the members in my class about the cross being an idol.

My arguement:

Anything and anyone can be an idol. (He agreed) even our children can be idols if we love them more than we love god. (He agreed). According to the teaching, we must destroy our idols. (He looked puzzled). But of course god doesn’t want us to destroy our children. (He agreed). So, we must begin to love god more than we love our children. (He agreed) then they won’t be idols anymore. (He agreed). So, if I stop bowing and praying to a cross, it’s no longer and idol. (He disagreed). Your children aren’t idols simply because I love mine more than god. (He agreed) your bible isn’t an idol because other people pray to theirs. (He agreed) so my cross isn’t an idol because other people pray to theirs. (He disagreed but couldn’t find a way to counter the logic.)

Another brother came and argued that gods thoughts are greater than ours. What he calls an idol is an idol no matter what we think. Then I told them how god describes an idol and how the cross is not specifically on the list. He brought up the history of the israelites worshipping the snake on the pole, how god called it an idol. Then I countered saying it was only called an idol once the people bowed and worshipped it. Just because it was made doesn’t make it an idol as god describes. Then he changes the subject to spiritual idols. I redirected saying I didn’t ask about spiritual idols but about physical idols. You’re teaching that all crosses are idols but the scripture doesn’t say that.

I also brought up the fact that jesus’ “face” is an image of what is in heaven which is an idol but is hanging all around zion. He laughed and asked if I was serious. He said its art. I said, so is the painting of a cross.. break was over so I needed to get back to class. But the first guy I spoke to seemed very puzzled about what I was saying and was unsure how to defend his truth. Mind you, he ought to know because he’s been a member for 5 years. Truth is, you can’t successfully defend a lie as truth.

[Emily]

[Emily]

Nice work Renita!!  Good job trying to reel them in and keep them on topic.  I hope that the first member really starts to question what he's been taught for the last 5 years.  The second guy sounds too "arrogant", dare I say that word lol.

[genny]

Excellent, Renita!  I think they will be thinking about that for a long time.

[Simon]

There really is a major difference between the Bible and babies and the cross. 

[Love'n Honey]

She would just be a mother. There is a major difference between the bible, children, and the cross. You have 1 living thing and 2 inanimate objects. But from what I was taught, the same rules apply. We’re going to resume our conversation tomorrow. I especially want to know what they think about jesus’ “face” and how that isn’t an idol according to scripture.

[Simon]

I was more thinking God wrote the Bible and commanded us to have children where as the cross is an icon (graven image) and never actually commanded by God 

 

So two CAN be an idol and one IS an idol? Depends on how you interpret it but there is a lot more room for cross as an idol than most of their doctrines.

 

(I know a lot of nonculty people who avoid the cross on the 2nd commandment)

[Love'n Honey]

I see what you’re saying but that isn’t at all my point.

[Elievalkyrie]

Okay…

First, I would like to point out that this topic confuses me, Renita. It has a broad definition of what an idol is…Can we go back to the basics? In the Bible, what is an idol or "graven image"?

 A graven image is an image carved out of stone, wood, or metal. It could be a statue of a person or animal, or a relief carving in a wall or pole.

So could a person BE a graven image? By the definition above, a person cannot be a "graven image" since we are not in the same category of THINGS or MAN-MADE stuffs…

When you say if you love a person (boyfriend, father, mother, babies, etc.) MORE THAN GOD, that would basically mean that you are breaking the First Commandment because you are putting that person above God, which then makes that person replace God's position in your life. 

Now if we consider the Second Commandment (I'm talking about the "You shall not make for yourself a carved image", NOT the "Do not take the name of LORD in vain, which the RC considered as the 2nd Commandment). 

The statement of the 2nd commandment is that : "You shall not make for yourself an image (graven image) in the form of anything in heaven above, etc. etc. You shall not BOW DOWN to them OR worship them, etc. etc." From this statement, can you worship any image? NO. Can you bown down to any image? NO. Then you shall not bown down and you shall not worship. You should not do BOTH. 

So, it was actually specified that you are not to BOW DOWN to ANY graven image… for example, a CROSS fits this category perfectly since IT IS a GRAVEN IMAGE, because this would be a direct violation of the 2nd commandment. You cannot fuse the two commandments together to suit your purpose. This is why we say you must understand what the Bible itself means, not what you think it means because people have different languages, it can be easily misinterpreted.

So I just plainly think that your argument is invalid because you are not using the word "idol" the way the Bible means. 

[Simon]

It all depends on how you define the list. the Talmudic and Augustine numbering would arguably consider false gods idols and idols false gods where as the Philo/Josephus numbering would not.

[Elievalkyrie]

Which came first, the Talmudic and Augustine teaching or the Phili / Josephus teaching?

[Elievalkyrie]

Which came first, the Talmudic and Augustine teaching or the Phili / Josephus teaching?

[genny]

Elievalkyrie wrote:

Okay…

First, I would like to point out that this topic confuses me, Renita. It has a broad definition of what an idol is…Can we go back to the basics? In the Bible, what is an idol or "graven image"?

 A graven image is an image carved out of stone, wood, or metal. It could be a statue of a person or animal, or a relief carving in a wall or pole.

So could a person BE a graven image? By the definition above, a person cannot be a "graven image" since we are not in the same category of THINGS or MAN-MADE stuffs…

When you say if you love a person (boyfriend, father, mother, babies, etc.) MORE THAN GOD, that would basically mean that you are breaking the First Commandment because you are putting that person above God, which then makes that person replace God's position in your life. 

Now if we consider the Second Commandment (I'm talking about the "You shall not make for yourself a carved image", NOT the "Do not take the name of LORD in vain, which the RC considered as the 2nd Commandment). 

The statement of the 2nd commandment is that : "You shall not make for yourself an image (graven image) in the form of anything in heaven above, etc. etc. You shall not BOW DOWN to them OR worship them, etc. etc." From this statement, can you worship any image? NO. Can you bown down to any image? NO. Then you shall not bown down and you shall not worship. You should not do BOTH. 

So, it was actually specified that you are not to BOW DOWN to ANY graven image… for example, a CROSS fits this category perfectly since IT IS a GRAVEN IMAGE, because this would be a direct violation of the 2nd commandment. You cannot fuse the two commandments together to suit your purpose. This is why we say you must understand what the Bible itself means, not what you think it means because people have different languages, it can be easily misinterpreted.

So I just plainly think that your argument is invalid because you are not using the word "idol" the way the Bible means. 

What about artistic sculpture?  Can I have a sculpture of a deer (for example) in my garden and have it not be an idol, while at the same time someone else has a sculpture of a deer and it is an idol that they worship?

I think Renita's got the basic idea right.

[Elievalkyrie]

If you don't worship that deer sculpture or "bow down" to it then it should not be considered as a idol. But if someone else considered their own "deer sculpture" a holy item and worships or bows down to it, then by definition, it is an idol and that person would be considered idolatrous.

[emil]

great job Renita. May the Holy Spirit inspire you as you speak to these people.

[Simon]

then I should be allowed an asherah pole if bowing is the only criteria

[KF]

Elievalkyrie wrote:

If you don't worship that deer sculpture or "bow down" to it then it should not be considered as a idol. But if someone else considered their own "deer sculpture" a holy item and worships or bows down to it, then by definition, it is an idol and that person would be considered idolatrous.

 Eli I get what your saying and I agree.  From my point of view we have images of everything all around us, the painting on the wall, my face in the mirror, a picture, etc.etc. BUT as long as I'm not using that image as a religious purpose, and pray to it, then it's not an idol it's just a regular picture or image, but when people bow down to a statue or a picture (lets say the Virgin Mary) then that makes it Idolatry. And God said not to do it.

[Elievalkyrie]

The thing with this idolatry issue is that many people have different views on this. Unless we find a fixed, unquestionable, indisputable ground on this topic, there would be no winning situation. My suggestion is that if you are not sure yet of what to believe, then just avoid it completely than do something that you are not completely sure of. That way, we can avoid sinning unintentionally. Anyway, we all know that God did NOT forbid anyone from NOT bowing to anyTHING, so we can be sure of that at least. (^_^)

[Love'n Honey]

,Wow, so many responses. This is good because your arguements are all very good. Kim and simon, I’m glad you understood what I was trying to say.

Eli – the point of the conversation was to exploit the wmscog’s definition of idol. No, a person isn’t a graven image. But, iaw the wmscog, anyone who is loved more than is god loved is an idol. Essentially, when this happens, the one who loves you more than they love god is guilty of breaking the 1st and 2nd commandment, iaw the wmscog. As for breaking down the 2nd commandment, it says not to bow or worship a graven image. But that graven image must be in the form of what is in HEAVEN, on the EARTH, or beneath the WATER. A cross isn’t in the form of anything in heaven, earth, or water. A cross is something people created as a punishment, not for worship. However, it became an idol once people began to worship it. For example, the bronze snake. It was in the form of something on earth. It was in the form of a snake. But it wasn’t an idol until it was worshipped. (Question: why wasn’t it considered an idol from just being made? Doesn’t the bronze snake break the first part of the 2nd commandment?) My arguement is valid especially against the wmscog’s idea of loving someone too much as idol worship. That’s not described at all.

[Elievalkyrie]

I see, so you were just countering the teachings of the wmscog…(i thought it was a general topic)  if that's the case, I'm all for it. LOL. Tell them whatever you want, confuse them, make them question their own teachings, they'll "disintegrate" faster that way.

[KF]

Elievalkyrie wrote:

The thing with this idolatry issue is that many people have different views on this. Unless we find a fixed, unquestionable, indisputable ground on this topic, there would be no winning situation. My suggestion is that if you are not sure yet of what to believe, then just avoid it completely than do something that you are not completely sure of. That way, we can avoid sinning unintentionally. Anyway, we all know that God did NOT forbid anyone from NOT bowing to anyTHING, so we can be sure of that at least. (^_^)

 ELI, I think you missed reading this part in the 10 commandments verse 5

 You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below.>You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments.

[Elievalkyrie]

Kim wrote:

Elievalkyrie wrote:

The thing with this idolatry issue is that many people have different views on this. Unless we find a fixed, unquestionable, indisputable ground on this topic, there would be no winning situation. My suggestion is that if you are not sure yet of what to believe, then just avoid it completely than do something that you are not completely sure of. That way, we can avoid sinning unintentionally. Anyway, we all know that God did NOT forbid anyone from NOT bowing to anyTHING, so we can be sure of that at least. (^_^)

 ELI, I think you missed reading this part in the 10 commandments verse 5

 You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below.>You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments.

Uhmm….Kim, I'm not sure of your point, maybe you misunderstood my statement above? To make it clear let me rephrase what I said… What I meant was that God NEVER said that we should ALWAYS bow down to something when worshiping Him so if I don't worship a cross, He wouldn't get angry.