[Love'n Honey]

I approached one of the members in my class about the cross being an idol.

My arguement:

Anything and anyone can be an idol. (He agreed) even our children can be idols if we love them more than we love god. (He agreed). According to the teaching, we must destroy our idols. (He looked puzzled). But of course god doesn’t want us to destroy our children. (He agreed). So, we must begin to love god more than we love our children. (He agreed) then they won’t be idols anymore. (He agreed). So, if I stop bowing and praying to a cross, it’s no longer and idol. (He disagreed). Your children aren’t idols simply because I love mine more than god. (He agreed) your bible isn’t an idol because other people pray to theirs. (He agreed) so my cross isn’t an idol because other people pray to theirs. (He disagreed but couldn’t find a way to counter the logic.)

Another brother came and argued that gods thoughts are greater than ours. What he calls an idol is an idol no matter what we think. Then I told them how god describes an idol and how the cross is not specifically on the list. He brought up the history of the israelites worshipping the snake on the pole, how god called it an idol. Then I countered saying it was only called an idol once the people bowed and worshipped it. Just because it was made doesn’t make it an idol as god describes. Then he changes the subject to spiritual idols. I redirected saying I didn’t ask about spiritual idols but about physical idols. You’re teaching that all crosses are idols but the scripture doesn’t say that.

I also brought up the fact that jesus’ “face” is an image of what is in heaven which is an idol but is hanging all around zion. He laughed and asked if I was serious. He said its art. I said, so is the painting of a cross.. break was over so I needed to get back to class. But the first guy I spoke to seemed very puzzled about what I was saying and was unsure how to defend his truth. Mind you, he ought to know because he’s been a member for 5 years. Truth is, you can’t successfully defend a lie as truth.

[KF]

[KF]

Oh sorry Eli. I did misunderstood thanks for clarifying, my mistake need to be a little more careful reading, going to fast, to many treads to read 🙂

[Elievalkyrie]

Kim wrote:

Oh sorry Eli. I did misunderstood thanks for clarifying, my mistake need to be a little more careful reading, going to fast, to many treads to read 🙂

LOL. That's okay Kim, I'm having the same problem also. The treads stacks up pretty quickly, so you have a lot to read if you're gone even for just a few hours. (^_^)

[Love'n Honey]

I had a more extensive conversation with brother **** about idolatry. He said my question about jesus’ “face” got him thinking. To recap, I told him jesus is in heaven. He agreed. I said there are images of jesus who is in heaven. He agreed. I asked, shouldn’t that be considered idolatry? He said he thought about it and concluded that its not wrong to have pictures of your family. I said true but that face isn’t your father. And even if it is, he’s in heaven which violates the first part of the 2nd commandment. Then he asked me if that was the only question. Asked me why I haven’t been to zion. Another redirect. They’re good for that.

I told him a lot about the discrepencies I’ve found in the wmscog doctrine and how no one gives me a straight answer. Which is why I don’t go to zion anymore.

[Simon]

Ahnsahnghong ALLEGEDLY said anytime you do anything outside of the will of God it is because you are commiting idolatry

[Love'n Honey]

No, my question when is something considered an idol. I told him that the table we were sitting at was created for storage or decoration of some sort. At creation, this table was not made to be worshipped. He agreed. I said a buddah* statue at creation was made to be worshipped so it is an idol. He agreed. I said my point is the intention the maker had when creating an object. Was the cross made to be worshipped or to be looked at? This idea came to my mind when I saw my neighbor wearing pants with crosses on them. Surely those pants weren’t made to be worshipped because they put crosses on it. In that case, the cross is a design, not a sacred thing.

[Love'n Honey]

I think this question kind of follows my arguement with the cross sometimes being an idol and sometimes not.

Can an activity be considered pagan if no god is involved? Like christmas.. if celebrate it with no reference to jesus or any god or angels or anything, would it still be pagan?

[genny]

renita.payno wrote:

I think this question kind of follows my arguement with the cross sometimes being an idol and sometimes not.

Can an activity be considered pagan if no god is involved? Like christmas.. if celebrate it with no reference to jesus or any god or angels or anything, would it still be pagan?

Some would say that the only things left would be pagan because you removed all the Christian references.

[Simon]

if you removed all the Christian and all the Pagan references there would probably be very little if anything left.

[Love'n Honey]

But there are a lot of activities that don’t reference christianity at all but aren’t considered pagan.

[Simon]

whats a secular christmas activity?

[Love'n Honey]

Depends on the persons intentions. All my life, decorating the tree had nothing to do with Jesus. We could have Christmas without it but couldn’t have Christmas without Jesus. For the past 3 Christmas, i have not celebrated Jesus birth. I didn’t agree with honoring ahnsahnghong and Zhangs birthdays but went along because i was told to. This year we decorated our tree without any reference to God or anything God related. technically, that was secular in our house.

[Simon]

decorating a tree is pagan originally

[Love'n Honey]

only because a god was involved. But the tree in my house is secular because there is no god involved.

[Simon]

must've misread your question my bad

[genny]

renita.payno wrote:

But there are a lot of activities that don't reference christianity at all but aren't considered pagan.

Which ones, for example?

Simon wrote:

decorating a tree is pagan originally

renita.payno wrote:

only because a god was involved. But the tree in my house is secular because there is no god involved.

But if I involve Jesus, then does my tree decorating become Christian?

[Love'n Honey]

It becomes religious. Idk what Christian is really, so i can’t say yes or no. some Christians would say involving Jesus in tree decorating would be pagan. But from i understand, everything is secular unless you involve a God. Going poop is secular. But, if i pray to God that all my sin and impurities leave my body through my poop every time I’m about to go, then it becomes a religious ritual. That’s my understanding.

[Simon]

You can argue so many things regarding that.

[Love'n Honey]

Like?

[Simon]

Hal wrote:

Elievalkyrie wrote:

Which came first, the Talmudic and Augustine teaching or the Phili / Josephus teaching?

 Josephus as Jospehus Flavious? He merely wrote out what the Tanakh and the history of judaism was to the Romans. However the Talmud is older than all Christian teachings.

The Talmud is older than all Christian teachings but rejected by a lot of Jews until they were all that was left

[Simon]

Well technically the Talmud is newer but the teachings themselves are an evolution of interpretations of scripture that began a couple hundred BC