- Topic
When anecdotes rule the day, Questioninginla challenges your thought. It appears that the people on this forum are able to think critically. I found the following two videos to present nothing more than mere anecdotes, and when analyzed, actually provide more support for Ron, Diane, and Steve than the videos ultimately discredit, one just has to dig deeper and analyze in order to come to that conclusion.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zYhBwfmfIq0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FqWMSgrU9rA (addressed later in a separate post within this thread)
Video 1 begins with the “if you try to please everyone you will end up losing your ass (used in context with the animal, with double entendre for humour)” parable. “The True WMSCOG” emphasizes the influence people/groups of people have upon individuals. So, anyone within this or any church is now free to analyze how the influence of the masses affects him/herself. I may suggest a few questions to ask:
When I first started attending how many people sat in for my bible studies? Did this have influence on me?
Is my suit & tie dressing up for God or have I conformed to a dress code?
Have I changed my hair styles, behaviors, attitudes, habits, etc. to conform to the group?
Have I just deferred to a list of rules from the Bible to justify my answers to the above? If so, from whom did I learn this list of rules?
If my answer to the preceeding question was "the Bible", did the Bible speak to me? With whom did I sit with to learn these rules? From whom did they learn it? How critically do I examine things? Has my critical examination changed from day 1 to now? What do friends and family from my time before belonging to this group say about me and my decision making?
Dear “The True WMSCOG”: thank you for this gift in providing this parable. A healthy blend of critical thought and intuition that occurs with the input of people within and outside of the group provides BALANCE for people – as compared to only obtaining information from one source; sources that typically provide its information with a monopoly on the information can easily use influence, conformity, and obedience to authority to reinforce itself. This healthy move towards balanced individuals is welcomed and surely it will now be encouraged on your website and put into practice….
Next, as “The True WMSCOG” moves in to the detailed examination of Steven Hassan, I would challenge the viewers to consider Ron Ramos’ statement (paraphrasing) ‘its not what is said, its what isn’t said’. To wit, “cult expert” is arguably a self-proclaimed profession; one cannot graduate with a degree in this discipline. And, there is indeed a damning review of Mr. Hassan’s book by Dr. Cathleen Mann here:
There are, however, also 15 other reviews, 11 of them giving 5 star reviews and 4 providing 4 star reviews.
The first germane point that I noticed was that “The True WMSCOG” first sought to discredit the field of “cult expertise” as a self-proclaimed profession and one in which there was no degree, then acknowledges cult expertise at 5:08 on behalf of Dr. Mann and uses it to discredit Hassan. There either is or isn’t “cult expertise”; using an issue to discredit itself is circular reasoning.
In order to mitigate tldnr, I will summarize a point here that while Dr. Mann raises important issues to question, the issue of if Dr. Mann or say, Rick Ross would take issue with the behavior of this or any group goes without being mentioned, which circles us back to the Ramos’ point of not what was said but what was left out; whether or not there is lying by omission or just a pattern of anecdotal thought is up to you, the reader, to decide. I wonder if thetruewmscog.com will solicit from Dr. Mann an opinion on the church for its website. I suspect that in advance of doing so Dr. Mann would ask tough questions, such as:
Do you study the Bible freely on your own or does someone have to interpret it?
Do you ever use better sounding words for activities — such as preaching instead of recruiting, etc.
Would your group allow you to read and examine this website?
How does the group and leadership generally deal with members who leave or who express doubt?
Do you think you have ever been misled by this group or its leaders?
How would you know that you are being lied to, if you are?
Does this group have one set of "truth" for insiders and one for outsiders? Can a reporter get information from the group outside of just superficial remarks?
How does the group view itself in relation to the outside world, if applicable?
Is your group the only group to have the only Truth/Path?
If you find out that you were being indoctrinated, would you leave? How would you recognize indoctrination? What are its characteristics?
Does the group teach that you isolate from non believers or family members?
Alas, these points are not addressed by “The True WMSCOG”. Neither are the points addressed of what defines a cult and its behavior patterns. It would be refreshing to have this list addressed by him in a comprehensive manner, don’t you think?
renita.payno wrote:
Truth wrote:
I wanted to make something clear regarding Diane and Ron's video. First of all you realize they did cut up that video and when Diane said no one called her who do you thing she was talking about? I would think since she spent 9 years in the church giving up her family and other activities, she had to be talking about the sisters in the church. The ones that she probably grew up with in there. What do you think? We all know how that feels….. So the Pastor or the so called mother 2 months later calling probably wasn't what she needed or she wanted. They are no one to her. that's their job to follow up especially when it was a prominate position like hers.
The fact that she mocked mother, well let's be honest hasn't almost all of us done this since we left. She says the same thing in english to everyone, even when she went on the radio in 2012.
Since we left? My sisters and I mocked the Koreans all the time! We even squinted our eyes when we said God Bless You. lol..
How many of your sisters left with you Renita ? Oh, and did you guys do the fake smile and hand wave too ?
That’s funny fake smile & hand wave. What about the videos they did like acting. It would take hours.
the introduction video ishows everyone leaving the airport, do you know how many times they did that before they could leave?
No one left with me.. I was saying "Before we left?" in a way to express I did that while I was a member. I didn't wait until after I left and there are sisters who are in there now who continue to mock the Koreans. Yes, we definitely did the smile, hand wave, everything.
renita.payno wrote:
No one left with me.. I was saying "Before we left?" in a way to express I did that while I was a member. I didn't wait until after I left and there are sisters who are in there now who continue to mock the Koreans. Yes, we definitely did the smile, hand wave, everything.
And the fake "Buk'manibadeseyo's", LOL.
Truth wrote:
That's funny fake smile & hand wave. What about the videos they did like acting. It would take hours.
the introduction video ishows everyone leaving the airport, do you know how many times they did that before they could leave?
Check 1:51 thru bout 2:05 of this video, LOL. You're gonna love it.
Onyongahsayo! Jo nuen Renita-imnida. Bangopsumeda!! =)
Stained wrote:
fromtheotherside wrote:
No my voice is more deeper.
My voice is "more" deeper. WHO TALKS LIKE THAT ? Fake Korean accent here folks, I guarantee it. My voice is "more" deeper, LOL.
Get a Haircut and get a real job.
Stained.
FTOS, grammar has never been that great. Not that it can't be, or that he doesn't know how to speak properly. I've actually seen him make a well-written post and show intelligence. I think when it comes to posting online, a lot of people just get lazy. Same thing with texting. I've had some very intelligent people send me a crazy text message. Personally it drives me crazy, but I guess it's not a big deal to others.
But I won't even answer/address someone's post, email, text, whatever, if it's written poorly. I figure if they have something that they want to say to me, they need to put in the effort and thought to do it well. To be honest, I would thinking writing horribly would take longer and more thought than just writing it properly in the first place.
I've never understood that fake Korean accent thing anyway. All the accents were genuine at Reseda. This whole making fun of Koreans thing- I didn't experience that, nor do I get it. They are just people- not any different from anyone else.
Liberty wrote:
Stained wrote:
fromtheotherside wrote:
No my voice is more deeper.
My voice is "more" deeper. WHO TALKS LIKE THAT ? Fake Korean accent here folks, I guarantee it. My voice is "more" deeper, LOL.
Get a Haircut and get a real job.
Stained.
FTOS, grammar has never been that great. Not that it can't be, or that he doesn't know how to speak properly. I've actually seen him make a well-written post and show intelligence. I think when it comes to posting online, a lot of people just get lazy. Same thing with texting. I've had some very intelligent people send me a crazy text message. Personally it drives me crazy, but I guess it's not a big deal to others.
But I won't even answer/address someone's post, email, text, whatever, if it's written poorly. I figure if they have something that they want to say to me, they need to put in the effort and thought to do it well. To be honest, I would thinking writing horribly would take longer and more thought than just writing it properly in the first place.
I've never understood that fake Korean accent thing anyway. All the accents were genuine at Reseda. This whole making fun of Koreans thing- I didn't experience that, nor do I get it. They are just people- not any different from anyone else.
What's a "fake Korean" accent in the first place. In America, I'm considered to have an accent; In France, they say I have a slight American accent which they love. So I think people who speak differently from the majority in any given area have accents. So in the end, don't we all have accents and depending on where we are our accents stand out from the norm?
I think it's rather obvious what we mean by a fake Korean accent. When a Korean is speaking English as at least a 2nd language, that Korean has a Korean accent in the English language. English is my 1st language so I don't have a Korean accent in the English language. But when I pretend to have an accent, I'm faking an accent; in this case a Korean accent. Hence "fake Korean accent".
From a general POV, absolutely everyone has an accent. An accent is simply how you speak. I have a very natural Spanish accent when I speak Spanish though English is my 1st language. I've also been told that my Korean accent in Korean is very well, also. Accent is not being misused here. Though an accent is usually used when referring to speaking in a language that is not your native tongue, that isn't the sole use of the word.
Interesting…. Thanks!
Thank you Stainer for pointing out my grammatical errors, I do tend to speak and type with more and more grammatical errors after being around many people speaking English in the Korean way, for so many years. Also my English grammer is poor because I've only gone up to my sophomore year in high school. I received (I remembered i before e except after c^^) my G.E.D in Orange County Juvenile hall. I did go to college in the Navy and have a business degree, not bad for a juvenile delinquint. So my English Grammer is poor, given I pretty much only studied up untill the 6th grade, after that pretty much went to school just to hang out. But it is a lot better than when I was younger and every other word was a F word or B word.
So when did this go from a topic on the wmscog's doctrine to FTOS's poor grammer? Lolz you guys are running out of things to talk about? J/K
Liberty wrote:
Stained wrote:
fromtheotherside wrote:
No my voice is more deeper.
My voice is "more" deeper. WHO TALKS LIKE THAT ? Fake Korean accent here folks, I guarantee it. My voice is "more" deeper, LOL.
Get a Haircut and get a real job.
Stained.
FTOS, grammar has never been that great. Not that it can't be, or that he doesn't know how to speak properly. I've actually seen him make a well-written post and show intelligence. I think when it comes to posting online, a lot of people just get lazy. Same thing with texting. I've had some very intelligent people send me a crazy text message. Personally it drives me crazy, but I guess it's not a big deal to others.
But I won't even answer/address someone's post, email, text, whatever, if it's written poorly. I figure if they have something that they want to say to me, they need to put in the effort and thought to do it well. To be honest, I would thinking writing horribly would take longer and more thought than just writing it properly in the first place.
I've never understood that fake Korean accent thing anyway. All the accents were genuine at Reseda. This whole making fun of Koreans thing- I didn't experience that, nor do I get it. They are just people- not any different from anyone else.
When we speak about the fake Korean accent we're not taking about ethnic Koreans from Korea. We're talking about American or Canadian people they pick up in a supermarket or the mall suddenly after a week or two in this "church" speaking with a Korean accent. Something like "Actually father actually<pause>ate nothing actually but porridge actually because actually he wanted actually to leave actually more food actually for you and actually for me actually to eat actually".
LMHO!!!!! That has to be the funniest post I have seen on this site, “actually.” How funny was that. Lol!!!! My stomach hurts from laughing.
FTOS. Juvenile delinquent??? I know you were being funny.
And Simon, I'm older than 5. I didn't know my grammer was that bad, nice of you to compare me to your 5 year old sister.
I've actually never heard someone trying to fake a Korean accent. It was never my experience. Interesting.
it was hyperbole actually . But little children double up comparative and superlatives although out certainly isn’t limited to little children or even uneducated.
The best debate is one which ends with everyone agreeing to disagree if that be the case. We don’t need to get upset at each other even while presenting our deep felt cases. I’d rather we disagree intelligently and move on to the next topic.
Um ok?
Back to the rebuttal videos by the wmscog…
When I saw them I got the impression that they were denying that they ever encourage abortion (directly or indirectly). They made it seem like Ron and Diane were contradicting each other.
Here's my question…maybe FTOS can answer…What is the official wmscog position on abortion? Is the wmscog pro- or anti-?
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