[Sarah2013]

I have moved the Coming in the Cloud discussion and brought it here. It was crowding another discussion and I thought I assign it a separate thread. I’m simply just going to copy and paste the last page relating to that topic for follow up. All the comments are together but divided by names, sorry for the clutter.

Wmscog’s teaching using scriptures vs. All other beliefs using scriptures as well.

[Sarah2013]

[Sarah2013]

Sarah2013

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Remember also the way they teach “Coming in the Cloud.? Yet, didnt Jesus physically ascend via the clouds physically after he rose from the dead and met with his disciples? They watched him as He ascended until they could see him no more. Acts 1: 9-11. I also know that they use the coming in a cloud teaching for how Jesus was Born and to justify how they claim Ahang was born. Once again, they do just the same thing with this also. Two angels said exactly how Jesus would return in Acts 1:9-1. What they have done is to gather scriptures out of place for their analysis. Scriptures such as Jude 1:10-13; proverbs 25: 14; John 4:7-13 and so on. All the more negating the very words those two men said about how Jesus would come back as the disciples looked on. It is a carefully crafted manipulation of scripture.

POSTED 8 HOURS AGO #

Sarah2013

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The presentation is wrong. World ages maybe but not God ages.

POSTED 8 HOURS AGO #

renita.payno

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Yea, the part where the cloud hid Him would imply that the verse was literal. But what about the clouds of people in Jude 1:12?

POSTED 7 HOURS AGO #

Kim

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I found this, maybe you can compare to what you were taught,

There are several meanings, depending on which text you are referring to; however the Bible is very literal and the definition and use of this word is either self explanatory, or a description is included in the passage, such as Joel 2:2 “a day of darkness and gloom, a day of clouds and blackness. Like dawn spreading across the mountains a large and mighty army comes…” referencing the same meaning as Ezekiel 38:9 “You and all your troops… Advancing like a storm, you will be like a cloud covering the land…”

For instance, in Genesis 9, “clouds” refers to clouds in the sky, as we see them.

In Exodus 13 & 14, The Lord and his angel(s) appeared in clouds similar to a pillar of smoke

In Exodus 40, it was a dense fog

In Lamentations 2 & 3, the clouds are like foreboding, cloaking shadows

Hebrews 12:1 refers to a large gathering of people, once again self explanatory: “surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses”

Jude 12 describes men, in the following text: “These men are blemishes… Clouds without rain blown along by the wind”

Revelations 1:7 “He is coming with the clouds” is literal, fulfilling Daniel 7:13 and Matthew 24:30 :clouds of the sky, or clouds of Heaven.

In Matthew 24:30; 26:64; Mark 13:26; 14:62; Luke 21:27; I Thessalonians 4:17; when the reference is made as either “in the clouds” or “on the clouds”, that’s what it means: There is no reason or cause to speculate that “well, he really meant <this> or <that> or <like a cloud>”. These passages don’t even lend themselves for the need for other interpretation – we know that He is coming in the sky, and we will go to meet Him in the sky, so why speculate that <clouds doesn’t mean “cloud” clouds, but a group of people>? Christ is coming, and those of us who know Him are going. THAT is all that matters!

http://www.blurtit.com/q4614086.html

POSTED 7 HOURS AGO #

Sarah2013

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It is simply analogy of comparison. Clouds without rain can mean a lot of things.

Here is that verse again: Jude verse 12 . These are the men who are [a]hidden reefs in your love feasts when they feast with you without fear, caring for themselves; clouds without water, carried along by winds; autumn trees without fruit, doubly dead, uprooted;

See how Jude uses many different words to describe these people: “autumn trees without fruit, doubly dead, uprooted.” We have to read in context always for better understanding. Wmscog do not implement that.

POSTED 7 HOURS AGO #

renita.payno

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That makes a lot of sense. Because when referring to large group of people, the Scripture didn’t say ‘in the cloud’ or ‘like a cloud’. It said a cloud of people. I see we have shifted topics. I guess we are done talking about the Ages?

POSTED 7 HOURS AGO #

renita.payno

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They say a cloud without rain is a man [cloud] without the Spirit [rain, water]. A tree with no fruit is Israel [tree] without repentance [fruit]

POSTED 7 HOURS AGO #

Sarah2013

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So with what you just posted, can you see how cloud doesn’t mean flesh as they teach.

POSTED 7 HOURS AGO #

Sarah2013

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That will be correct there, in that, the cloud mentioned Is referencing man. It is clearly used hear to show character – type. I can say of a particular breed of horses that they are clouds without rain. I’m characterising something about them that is different, and in this case without rain it would be bad.

POSTED 7 HOURS AGO #

renita.payno

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I posted that cloud means flesh. A cloud with no rain is a man [cloud] without the Spirit [rain, water]. Man is flesh. There are only 2 forms of existence, physically and spiritually. To come in flesh is to come as a man [regardless of gender]. They also teach that cloud means cloud. They say that the definition of cloud is different in certain parts of the bible. How they prove it doesn’t make sense. But what I said shows that cloud means flesh.

POSTED 7 HOURS AGO #

Sarah2013

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Yes. I see your point. However, I don’t necessarily view it as flesh (i see it more as description) because the same symbolic analogy (clouds without rain) could be used to described trees. My point is simply this, say your flesh concept is right as they preach, how does that juxtapose into Jesus second coming. It specifically says in Acts 1:9-11, how Jesus would come back the second time. Why have they chosen that to be symbolic? Especially, being that you agree they teach clouds as both symbolic and literal.

POSTED 6 HOURS AGO #

Sarah2013

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On a side note, that section of Jude to me, undoubtedly, describes Wmscog and not Israel as they say. That is Wmscog and others like them and so on.

Sorry for shifting topic. I will leave it whatever your response is so we can go back to the ages discussion.

POSTED 6 HOURS AGO #

Simon

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jesus will return by the same way he went into heaven.. In flesh? Levitating?

Also if clouds are literal how are we to see him?

POSTED 3 HOURS AGO #

Simon

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And if he’s going to appear in the sky why did the angel question and rebuke iwatching the sky in the same sentence

POSTED 3 HOURS AGO # QUOTE

Sarah2013

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Simon, here is that verse again: Acts 1:9-11

9 And after He had said these things, He was lifted up while they were looking on, and a cloud received Him out of their sight. 10 And as they were gazing intently into [a]the sky while He was going, behold, two men in white clothing stood beside them. 11 They also said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into the sky? This Jesus, who has been taken up from you into heaven, will come in just the same way as you have watched Him go into heaven.”

So yes, that is literal to me – the statement, that is. As far as seeing him, we have no idea what our new bodies will be like, and secondly, we cannot begin to understand the wisdom of God. Our wisdom is limited and we can only see as far as our minds will go. All things are possible to God, save he cannot lie.

As far as flesh, the dead in christ is said to rise first and the rest of believers follow. so whatever our glorified body will look like that’s what we’ll be wearing. Why is it not possible that we can all be levitating with him.? Why is it impossible If God wills to see and hear him all at once all over the world?

I feel we see it as impossible because of our limited minds. Who would have thought God could split an ocean; raise the dead; or better yet, the creation of the universe. Earth sits on nothing. So yes, it is very possible and Acts 1-9:11 is what I’m backing that up with.

I’d rather stick with this mindset than that of Ahang having come as Christ.

POSTED 1 HOUR AGO # QUOTE

[Sarah2013]

If possible, that is if you will, it might help if you hit reply rather than quote for at least your first comment. This is so it doesn’t have all I copied and pasted together as it does now.

[Love'n Honey]

Idk what to say about coming on the cloud.

[Questioninginla]

I'm going to add cloud to the word list (different thread) and discuss usage of words again.

[Sarah2013]

That’s cool. What is the thread called?

[Questioninginla]

Sarah2013 wrote:

That's cool. What is the thread called?

 composing on it now.  "Why words matter".

[Sarah2013]

Ok cool. Thanks.

[Emily]

Here's more info on the "cloud"

https://www.examiningthewmscog.com/archives/daniels-vision/

http://encountering-ahnsahnghong.blogspot.com/search/label/clouds

[Questioninginla]

Good post, but I argue that it is about the process in which one gets there.  Either way, it still probably falls on deaf ears, unfortunately.

[Simon]

Sarah2013 wrote:

Simon, here is that verse again: Acts 1:9-11

9 And after He had said these things, He was lifted up while they were looking on, and a cloud received Him out of their sight. 10 And as they were gazing intently into [a]the sky while He was going, behold, two men in white clothing stood beside them. 11 They also said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into the sky? This Jesus, who has been taken up from you into heaven, will come in just the same way as you have watched Him go into heaven.”

So yes, that is literal to me –

Literally Jesus would return by leaving the mount of olives going upward. 

 

Also note the angels ask why they are watching the sky if he is going to return in the sky literally the question is stupid.

 

the statement, that is. As far as seeing him, we have no idea what our new bodies will be like, and secondly, we cannot begin to understand the wisdom of God. Our wisdom is limited and we can only see as far as our minds will go. All things are possible to God, save he cannot lie.

Jesus will return before we are in our glorified bodies.

 Why is it not possible that we can all be levitating with him.? 

I didn't say it was I said you cannot come to earth by levitating

Why is it impossible If God wills to see and hear him all at once all over the world?

You can't be seen ON a cloud because we can't even see things much bigger than a human body behind clouds

[Sarah2013]

But on that day, Simon, we really can’t conclude how it will be. I doubt anyone really knows. We simply go by what we believe scripture is saying.

[Love'n Honey]

Literally Jesus would return by leaving the mount of olives going upward . That does make any sense. You mean to tell me you've never heard someone say, "Go the way you came."?? That means to take the very route you took to get here in the opposite manner. Or to come the way you went means to take the very route you took to leave in the opposite manner.

[Simon]

That wouldn't be literal

 

but even if that's what was meant it would contradict the first part of the quote

[Love'n Honey]

You are way too attached to this word 'literal' that you're dismissing what it means to us people when someone says come the way you went or to go the way you came. I will agree with you that if God were coming literally on clouds, it would be very difficult to see Him. We had a major accident this morning on the freeway because of the fog.

[Sarah2013]

🙂

[Simon]

Again the first sentence makes literal sky implausible as does how hard it is to see as such I don’t think it is as wmscog interprets it either

I’ve researched how clouds can be used as metaphors for power and judgment and lean there

[Sarah2013]

Implausible to whom. Forces of nature, which God controls? Man? We have limited conception of knowledge and wisdom. Something’s can’t be reasoned with the human mind. I understand what you mean, Simon. Yet, I believe if God wants that to be possible and the case, then He will and can make that possible.

Jesus literally levitated. He can make it to where all can do the same on that day and all see too even through clouds. That’s why he is God and we are not. We have limited understanding. He made Nimrod’s donkey speak, didnt he?

[Simon]

god acts with what is logical.

further the other interpretation makes more sense from an understanding a first century jew would understand and also explain why the high priest saw it as blasphemy.

Would also explain how he came on a cloud with his first coming as well

[Sarah2013]

Yes. I see why you would think so. when this happens, Simon, we (believers) will not be in this same body, more like a glorified body. But what appear logical to man is certainly different from that of God. It is this limited human logic that causes one to see in part. It is this same understanding of “logic” that shocked man when he raised Lazarus, rained down manner from heaven, parted the Red Sea, caused the three Hebrew kids not to perish in the fire, the creation of the world as we see it today, Jonah in the belly of a whale without killing him, Elijah and the prophets of Baal, walking on water(how logical is that)? Don’t under estimate what is possible with God. Not even scientifically. We only know in part.

How logical is walking on water? Or was that a metaphor? God is not man, how can his creation say what is logical, implausible, impossible with God?

[Smurf]

Sarah2013 wrote:

 

How logical is walking on water? Or was that a metaphor? God is not man, how can his creation say what is logical, implausible, impossible with God?

I think those guys beg to differ…

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oe3St1GgoHQ