[Elievalkyrie]

I don't know if everyone knows about this already but for the sake of those who don't know and want clarifications, I'll explain here.

What is the Passover? Super basic question being encountered with the wmscogs. If you don't know anything about it and wmscog asks "are you celebrating the Passover?" Then you would answer No. If they would say, then you are not following God's command, you will not enter Heaven. IF you have little biblical understanding, then you would listen to their explainations and think "Oh my gosh! I am going to hell!"

Now, your thoughts would also depend on what you do believe about the Bible. Do you believe in the Old testament? or the New testament? Or Both? 

For the purpose of not getting confused over the Passover and the Lord's Supper, we'll pretend that everyone that reads here believes in Both testaments. 

In the Old Testament, when God (thru Moses) led the Israelites out of the land of slavery, one of His ordinances was the Passover. The people were told to take a 1 year old lamb without defect and take its blood and spread it on the side and on the top of the door. Then the people were to eat the roasted lamb, every bit of it, leaving nothing behind. God said that they do this yearly to commemorate the time when He save them from slavery. This was one of His covenants / contracts to the Israelites.

In the New Testament, Jesus told the disciples to prepare the Passover meal. DURING the Passover, he made a NEW covenant. He took the bread and wine and shared it with them and told them "Do this in remembrance of me". That's why the sharing of bread and wine is called the Lord's Supper. The bread symbolizes his body, which will be nailed on the cross and the wine symbolizes his blood which will be shed for many for the forgiveness of sins.

The Passover and the Lord's Supper were totally different covenants. The Passover is in REMEMBRANCE OF GOD SAVING THEM FROM EGYPT and the Lord's Supper is in REMEMBRANCE OF THE SACRIFICE OF JESUS TO SAVE THE WHOLE WORLD FROM SIN. 

We were the ones that were supposed to die because of our sins, but Jesus died for us so we don't have to. In other words, he became a Passover Lamb, a sacrifice so that our sins will be forgiven. When he made that ULTIMATE sacrifice, the Passover was made obsolete. You can find in Hebrews more explanations on this. But the point here is because his SACRIFICE was so complete, so ultimate, that we don't have to kill any animal to  sacrifice again. We could not equal the importance of the Son of God's blood to the blood of a animal. 

So the Passover is obsolete. The Lord's Supper is NOT the PASSOVER. By definition, the word NEW means it is something that has never been made before. It is different from the word RENEWED. But what word was used in the Bible? IT'S A NEW COVENANT, not a RENEWED one.

So if you are asked by wmscog members, "Then why do you not celebrate the Passover?" You can tell them, "I celebrate the Lord's Supper" (if you really do)

Or you can say "You don't celebrate it either, I don't see you spreading blood of lambs on the side and top of your doors."

[Love'n Honey]

[Love'n Honey]

Jesus’ death isn’t suicide by technicality*

[Elievalkyrie]

Let's say that He didn't protect anyone for arguement's sake. You might even say he is insane for believing that he was God! People couldn't accept that so they killed Him. He just died for his beliefs, so you would condemn him for this too? If you saw someone in the streets right now, he says he is God, and someone killed him, would you say "He deserve that!"??

[Love'n Honey]

There are a lot of people who would say people who think they’re the christ deserve to die. But I hope that the people who were sentenced to be stone or crux or hanged or whatever fought and ran until death caught up with them. Everyone on who has been sentenced to death and killed have committed suicide too. People who allow themselves to be raped weren’t really raped. People who allow themselves to be robbed weren’t really robbed. I guess you have to fight at all times. If you hide or don’t resist, you’re no longer a victim.

[Elievalkyrie]

You are not putting yourselve in their shoes Renita. You are generalizing the topic too much and you are focusing on living too much. Life is precious but must we do everything to live, even abandon  our faith? Let's say you were captured, and they said that if you want to live, you'll have to denouce your God in front of all the people. Would you do it? And what if you won't do it and they killed you, if the people were saying "She is not a victim, she committed suicide." Do you think is fair? Who do you think God will punish? You or the one who killed you? 

[Simon]

Where did he try to change the law in a manner the priests actually understood it?

[Love'n Honey]

He changed everything. The feasts, the stoning.. Everything.

[Simon]

Infront of the priests?

[Love'n Honey]

His “example” which is how everyone says he changed the law was done exactly in the face of religious leaders.

[Simon]

renita.payno wrote:

His "example" which is how everyone says he changed the law was done exactly in the face of religious leaders.

I guess you could argue that.

 

Hal wrote:

And by that, he should of been legally stoned. IMO, they should of used the stones left by the Macabees who when they rebuilt the alter placed the defiled stones in a closet.

I think the Pharisees shoulda been stoned for their Takanot (:

[Elievalkyrie]

I think that we are way past people stoning each other. And since the WMSCOG does not condone to stoning of any kind, can we skip this topic? LOL. What we are talking about here is Christianity itself, I think this should be talked about in another forum as not to confuse the other members. We are trying to help people get out of wmscog, not trying to confuse them more! ^_^

[Simon]

there is a difference between Miranda rights and telling you the proper way to put on shoes. for example

[Simon]

That regulation could be argued against Deut 4:2

[Elievalkyrie]

I decided to continue this forum topic since we now have a wmscog member who is willing to discuss this with us.

FTOS, this is your last comment.

okay let me ask why didn’t he celebrate during his three years while doing the gospel, and WHERES THE LAMB it’s custom to eat a lamb????

My answer: are you saying that Jesus did not celebrate the Passover for three years? Where was this stated in the bible, can you give me the verse?

[fromtheotherside]

actually becuase it's not in the bible.  

[fromtheotherside]

so you can't prove he did, so again

1. where is the lamb they should eat customary for the OT Passover,

2.Also do you believe jesus is jew before he is God,

3.why would God be 'allowed' to keep the Passover?

4.and why would God need to keep the Passover, the passover and all other feasts are for SINNERS? 

5. then Jesus is a sinner????

6. And if He is Jew and he kept Passover Because he was a Jew, then how can you make a distinction between, Jesus did this because he is a Jew, and Jesus did this because He was trying to teach us something?

[Elievalkyrie]

Hmm…can you agree that absence of evidence is not evidence of absence? If this is true that Jesus did not keep the Passover… So you are saying Jesus broke a law? It is one of the jewish law after all. The punishment for that, I believe, is death. That would mean that the Jews really do have a valid reason to kill Him. But it was also stated in the bible that the priests and even pontius pilate didn’t find anything wrong with Jesus (they wanted Him crucified claiming He was doing blasphemy which is not related to Passover), that would mean He followed Jewish laws INCLUDING the passover.

[Elievalkyrie]

Sorry for the late reply, my Internet connection is having problems.

so you can’t prove he did, so again

1. where is the lamb they should eat customary for the OT Passover,

Since the Passover was customary, it is not necessary to highlight anymore. But we could argue that the lamb was not necessary because Jesus was considered as the lamb.

2.Also do you believe jesus is jew before he is God,

Let’s define SIN shall we? Sin means transgression of the laws. Since Jesus as a Holy Son cannot sin, therefore He would not have transgress the laws. The passover was part of the laws.

3.why would God be ‘allowed’ to keep the Passover?

Jesus came on earth to fulfill ALL the laws in place for those who cannot fulfill it. What I meant by at the word ‘allowed’ Was that the Jews find no reason to protest that He participated in the Passover since He was born as a Jew. if He was not a Jew, there would have been a dispute over why He would participate in it.

4.and why would God need to keep the Passover, the passover and all other feasts are for SINNERS? 

Jesus as God did not NEED to keep the Passover or all other laws, but since God the Father made the laws, the israelites are born under it. No one was able to keep all the laws perfectly, therefore Jesus fulfilled it for them and sacrifice Himself so that people can have the chance to have eternal life, what’s the catch? You have to have faith that He DID save you.

5. then Jesus is a sinner????

I think that is a very stupid question.

6. And if He is Jew and he kept Passover Because he was a Jew, then how can you make a distinction between, Jesus did this because he is a Jew, and Jesus did this because He was trying to teach us something?

A teaching is a teaching. Jesus was not teaching the Passover since it already exist even before He came on earth. The people already know how to DO the Passover and have been doing it even before Jesus came.

[genny]

Where is the lamb that was customary to eat with the Passover supper?

Luke 22:20 "…after the supper, he took the cup…"

Just because it is not mentioned specifically doesn't mean it wasn't there.  It does say that they ate the meal.  We can assume it was the lamb because they would have kept the traditional supper, and who would call a piece of bread a meal?

[Elievalkyrie]

There, what Genny said has a point also. If we could all assume that it didn’t happen just because it was not stated in the bible, then I could also assume that Jesus did not urinate or defecate or played, cried, or laugh when He was still a child. Not being sarcastic here, just making a point.

[Elievalkyrie]

The rule about Passover is seen in Numbers 9:13, “But if a man who is ceremonially clean and not on a journey fails to celebrate the Passover, that person must be cut off from his people because he did not present the LORD’s offering at the appointed time. That man will bear the consequences of his sin.”

See, it is considered a sin if you do not do the Passover. If Jesus did not do Passover for three whole years, that would mean He did commit sin, both in the eyes of men and God. That is a very contradictory teaching. So we have to agree on this issue first before proceeding.