- Topic
“The Spirit and the bride say, “Come”!…
I was reading this verse and a question came to mind. If Zhang Gil Jah is supposed to be the bride then shouldn’t she be saying “Come”? Why hasn’t she gone on national television to reveal her true identity if she is the female “god”? Does anyone know if she has ever proclaimed that she is god? I looked on the english.watv.org website and I could not find a direct statement from her to this effect. I see sermons mentioning the bride as the mother image but never naming who she is. Maybe I missed it? Any WMSCOG member out there willing to clarify?
Also, why doesn’t she say who she is on her foundation website if she is really “god” and if allegedly the world can only be saved by her? She names herself “Chairwoman” not “god” who is supposed to say “Come”. http://eng.weloveu.or.kr/intro/foundation.asp
This just seems strange to me.
I am also curious about who she really is. Very difficult to find information about her. Anyone know?
I’d be interested to know if she has any family in Korea or anywhere, and what they think of her activities with the WMS.
I don’t know if she has ever actually said the words claiming to be god herself, but I can imagine her one day saying (perhaps when she finally meets the true God):
“I never said I was god! Those people worshiped me out of their own free will! It’s not my fault!”
Yeah. No excuse.
So if She goes on national televison and says she is God you will believe? I will let her know.
That's funny, ChildOfZion. 🙂
Lot's of people claim they are God. What makes her different from the rest that you would believe her and not the others. Can you sum it up in a nutshell?
B/c the Bible says so!!! B/c CHrist Ahnsahnghong says so.
2000 years ago, Jesus did not shout that He was God to everyone. Many times He told those who realized the Truth to be quiet and not tell anyone who He was didnt He? After the resurrection, the apostles took up that mission to proclaim that God had come in the flesh as a man. Even though Jesus didnt shout it, he was humble, His apostles shouted that Christ had come. Now that is what we do.
The Bible is not a fourtune cookie.
When did Ahnsahnghong say that Zhanggiljah was god?
Christians have been around for about 2000 years, yet they have not seen anything in the Bible about a second "mother god." The only way you get to a 'mother god' in the Bible is to believe in interpretations from people such as Sun Myung Moon or the wmscog. (I would say Ahnsahnghong also, except that I still haven't seen anything in his writings that teaches a 'mother god.')
So here's the way the chain goes as I see the wmscog explain it…
1. Believe in mother god because the Bible says so. How do we know the Bible says so since no respectable Bible scholars teach this? Because Ahnsahnghong revealed it.
2. Why should I believe Ahnsahnghong interpreted this correctly from the Bible? Because he is god and god knows what he's talking about.
3. Why should I believe Ahnsahnghong is god? Because the prophecies in the Bible reveal that he is.
4. Why should I believe in your interpretation of those prophecies, since they don't agree with Bible scholars? Because Ahnsahnghong revealed the truth.
5. Why should I believe that Ahnsahnghong is the only one with the truth? Because he is god.
You see how this is a circular argument? It doesn't get us anywhere.
So rather than just saying you believe because the Bible and Ahnsahnghong say so, can you pinpoint some of the key, specific reasons why someone should believe in Ahnsahnghong and Zahng GilJah–reasons that don't rely on already believing that Ahnsahnghong is god? Something more objective that isn't refuted by Bible scholars? That would be a good starting point.
I should add… as an example for Jesus, there is His resurrection. You don't already have to believe in Jesus as God to be convinced by the evidence that He rose from the dead. That was a good starting point for me when I was a new Christian.
genny wrote:
Christians have been around for about 2000 years, yet they have not seen anything in the Bible about a second "mother god." The only way you get to a 'mother god' in the Bible is to believe in interpretations from people such as Sun Myung Moon or the wmscog. (I would say Ahnsahnghong also, except that I still haven't seen anything in his writings that teaches a 'mother god.')
So here's the way the chain goes as I see the wmscog explain it…
1. Believe in mother god because the Bible says so. How do we know the Bible says so since no respectable Bible scholars teach this? Because Ahnsahnghong revealed it.
2. Why should I believe Ahnsahnghong interpreted this correctly from the Bible? Because he is god and god knows what he's talking about.
3. Why should I believe Ahnsahnghong is god? Because the prophecies in the Bible reveal that he is.
4. Why should I believe in your interpretation of those prophecies, since they don't agree with Bible scholars? Because Ahnsahnghong revealed the truth.
5. Why should I believe that Ahnsahnghong is the only one with the truth? Because he is god.
You see how this is a circular argument? It doesn't get us anywhere.
So rather than just saying you believe because the Bible and Ahnsahnghong say so, can you pinpoint some of the key, specific reasons why someone should believe in Ahnsahnghong and Zahng GilJah–reasons that don't rely on already believing that Ahnsahnghong is god? Something more objective that isn't refuted by Bible scholars? That would be a good starting point.
Well that's not really the way it goes, but nice try. Why do you put so trust in the Biblical Scholars? Did they understand the prophicies about Jesus Christ? No. They, the biblical scholars, were the ones that handed Him over to be crucified. You trust the word of men more than the actual scripture. You are making the same mistake they made 2000 years ago. All the Scholars knew what the Bible said, and they still killed the One who came and fufilled those prophicies. So forgive me if I do not put my faith in the Scholars.
genny wrote:
I should add… as an example for Jesus, there is His resurrection. You don't already have to believe in Jesus as God to be convinced by the evidence that He rose from the dead. That was a good starting point for me when I was a new Christian.
<font style=”background-color: #ffffff”> There is no eveidence that Jesus rose from the dead. Only through firm faith in the scriptures can we believe that, and only through prophcy can we have conviction that the word of God is True. Christ rose from the dead 2000 years ago to fufill prophecy. </font>
Well that's not really the way it goes, but nice try. Why do you put so trust in the Biblical Scholars? Did they understand the prophicies about Jesus Christ? No. They, the biblical scholars, were the ones that handed Him over to be crucified. You trust the word of men more than the actual scripture. You are making the same mistake they made 2000 years ago. All the Scholars knew what the Bible said, and they still killed the One who came and fufilled those prophicies. So forgive me if I do not put my faith in the Scholars.
That is the way conversations with wmscog members go, in my experience. How would you describe it differently?
Please don't use the line about "making the same mistake they made 2000 years ago." Any one of those other false christs can use that same line. It just shifts attention away from the question without answering it.
So you don't like the word 'scholars.' How about historical evidence then, something outside of the wmscog's own teaching that would support it?
(You know, after discovering how the wmscog has misrepresented historical facts, especially regarding the Catholic Church, I'm a bit wary about history as interpreted by the wmscog.)
There is no eveidence that Jesus rose from the dead. Only through firm faith in the scriptures can we believe that, and only through prophcy can we have conviction that the word of God is True.
I agree that fulfilled prophecy is a major proof for the Bible as the word of God. But yes, there is evidence that Jesus rose from the dead. It's not something I take on blind faith. The Case for Christ is a good book about it. You should check it out.
That is the way conversations with wmscog members go, in my experience
Is that the way our conversation has gone? Let's all try to forget steryotypes.
What physical (not refering to phy vs spiritual), actual, eveidence is there that Christ rose form the dead? Many pagan religions have taught for centuries, before Christianity, that their god rose from the dead and the poeple believed it. I will not be purchasing the book, so maybe you could just give some good concrete evidence that Christ rose from the dead. (again I believe that He did, but I have no eveidence except that through Biblical prophecy I believe the Bible to be fact).
"I agree that fulfilled prophecy is a major proof for the Bible as the word of God." But you will only believe in prophecy that Biblical scholars tell you is correct or agree with. I am just making a comparison between what you are saying to what happended 2000 years ago. 2000 years ago, the Biblical scholars didn't understand the prophcies about the Christ, nor did they actually believe in the prophecies. The Biblical scholars stirred up the Jews to have Christ crucified, and to go around persecuting the early chruch calling them a cult.
I grew up a Christian (protestant). My parents are not very religious, but they say they beleive in Jesus. I saw my church basketball coach cuss out a referee one year, the next year a different basketball caoch physically beat the crap out of a referee, the youth minister that babtized me was later arrested for child pornogrophy, and all the drugs in the church (I was first introduced to drugs through a church member) looking back I can see that it was not a house of God. There were many other things, but these were just some of the major things I remember. My mother stopped going to church all-together, but she says she still believes in Jesus, but she doesnt need to go to church. We did not learn a single thing as children about Jesus Christ, prophecy and fufillment. "Just Believe!" I quit going to church during high school and college, but I always believed that there was a God and maybe one day I would know the Truth. I prayed to God that if Jesus was God, how could I know? Then I was preached to by someone, went to the Church of God, studied and got babtized and now I know that Jesus Christ died and rose from the dead. My Heavenly Father came to the earth 2000 years ago in the flesh to give me (you) forgiveness of our sins.
But the Biblical Scholars did not understand the Bible (i know it wasnt the Bible then), they rejected the Christ and taught that He too was a false prophet. The Biblical scholars did not understand, and believe, the prophecy about God coming in the flesh. Biblical Scholars nowadays are the same. Hundreds and Hundreds of different denominations teaching different things, especially concerning the second coming of Christ. Some believe in the rapture, some dont. Some think that Jesus is going to come and reign as a physical king for 1000 years and some dont. During the dark and middle ages, the Catholic Chruch was the church of christianity, and they were horrible people. So many millions of innocent bloodshed during the inquisitions and crusades, all in the name of god. If their church was the True Church, their should have been a time of peace and great love in the world considering the Pope wielded all authority over the Kings of Europe. The pope recently even apologized for the wrongdoings during that time period. That's why the protestant reformation occured. Scholar after scholar emerged with their own opinions saying why the Catolic Church was wrong.
But still to this day, Protestants are following Catholic doctrine. it was the Catholic Church that inroduced Christmas which has nothhing to do with the birth of Jesus Christ (now Biblical scholars believe that Jesus was bron in late March or early april), but they are still following the tradition of the Catholic Church. it was the Catholic Church that introduced Easter, St. Valentines day, All Souls day and All Hallows Eve (Haloween). All these pagan feasts were introduced by the Catholic Church. I have always refused to believe catholic doctrine even before coming to CoG. The Bible says not to join in with the pagans and their feasts, but the Catholic Church did it anyway.
When I was begining to study, I tested everything. I am a skeptic by nature. I researched the history on my own, not just blindly accepting what was being taught to me, and what I have researched through history confirms what I have learned in the Church of God, especially regarding the Catholic Church.
Let's just see a few titles of the pope.
We define that the Holy Apostolic See and the Roman Pontiff hold primacy over the whole earth.
All names which in the Scriptures are applied to Christ, by virtue of which it is established
The Pope is not only the representative of Jesus Christ, but he is Jesus Christ, Himself,
We hold upon this earth the place of God Almighty
You can find all this and more if you do a little research. This is blashpemy to the nth degree.
Daniel 7 25 and 2nd Thess 2:3-4. Can you see who the man of lawlessness is? I do.
What physical (not refering to phy vs spiritual), actual, eveidence is there that Christ rose form the dead? Many pagan religions have taught for centuries, before Christianity, that their god rose from the dead and the poeple believed it. I will not be purchasing the book, so maybe you could just give some good concrete evidence that Christ rose from the dead. (again I believe that He did, but I have no eveidence except that through Biblical prophecy I believe the Bible to be fact).
You don't have to buy the book. I'm sure it's at your local library to borrow. Here's a brief summary of the evidence. (Since you and I both believe inthe resurrection, we don't need to debate this, but it is good to know and share.)
Jesus was alive, then He was dead. Shortly afterward, His tomb was found empty, and He was seen alive again. There are various ways people have tried to explain this (besides the resurrection): He didn't really die (just fainted), the body was stolen, they mistakenly looked in the wrong tomb, the disciples lied about it. None of those explanations fits the evidence–medical evidence of what happens to the body during a crucifixion, the missing body evidence, the evidence of the changed lives of the apostles, the evidence that the apostle were willing to suffer death for their testimony. As unbelievable as the resurrection may sound to a skeptic, it is the only explanation that fits the evidence.
Another good book is More Than a Carpenter. That's probably at your local library too.
I grew up a Christian (protestant). My parents are not very religious, but they say they beleive in Jesus. I saw my church basketball coach cuss out a referee one year, the next year a different basketball caoch physically beat the crap out of a referee, the youth minister that babtized me was later arrested for child pornogrophy, and all the drugs in the church (I was first introduced to drugs through a church member) looking back I can see that it was not a house of God. There were many other things, but these were just some of the major things I remember.
I'm so sorry! What an awful experience! No wonder you didn't want to stay in the church. And I'm sorry you didn't have spiritual support at home either. Even Christians fail sometimes (even wmscog members fail too don't they?), but it's terrible you had so many people around you fail at such a key time in your life.
That's not the way it's supposed to be, and it's definitely not like that at other churches. When my dearest friends were growing up, they were part of a full gospel church. Their family did their best to live a Christian life all the time, not just on Sundays. Their church was very focused on living a holy, set-apart kind of life, so much so that the girls didn't wear make-up or pants. No alcohol, no school dances. They went street-preaching in the messy parts of downtown to spread the good news. All this was not in a legalistic way, but in a how-can-we-live-life-to-the-spiritual-fullest way. The associate pastor (who is a good friend still), studied and lectured on prophecy. They not only said they believed in Jesus, they lived it too.
I was an adult by the time I found my faith, so I didn't have any of that, but I'm determined to give it to my children. We are not just Sunday Christians either. Faith pervades our lives, and we have a church that agrees it should be so. The kids at our church learn about Jesus from the time they are very small. They learn about how much Jesus loves them, and about how He wants us to live our everyday lives. We don't just say we believe in Jesus, we live it too. (As much as we able. As humans we still make mistakes–I just had to apologize yesterday for some failures of mine. But thank God, we are saved because of what Jesus did, not because of what we do.)
I am truly sorry for your experience growing up. That's not the way it should have been.
it was the Catholic Church that inroduced Christmas which has nothhing to do with the birth of Jesus Christ (now Biblical scholars believe that Jesus was bron in late March or early april)
Wait… Do you or don't you trust Biblical scholars? 😉
Christmas is all about remembering the birth of Christ, so how can you say it has nothing to do with the birth of Jesus? If you are specifically meaning the date is not Jesus true birthdate… of course not. There is no record of Jesus' actual birth date in the Bible. But that doesn't mean we should forget that He had a birthdate.
Oh, here's an interesting thing I think you'll like: The Star of Bethlehem.
Don't be afraid of it being a non-wmscog resource. My sister watched the video and said it was great, showing how even the stars testify to the truth of the Bible. You can't watch it on the website, but you can read all the information. I'd like to know what you think, but please read the whole thing, not just a part.
When I was begining to study, I tested everything. I am a skeptic by nature. I researched the history on my own, not just blindly accepting what was being taught to me, and what I have researched through history confirms what I have learned in the Church of God, especially regarding the Catholic Church.
That's good that you did some of your own research. Did your research also show you that other claims that the wmscog teaches regarding the Catholic Church are false. The 1260 days (years) and 10 kingdoms from the fall of the Roman Empire (click here for details) are fresh on my mind, but there are other false claims too.
Also, I've seen enough quotes taken out of context by the wmscog that I don't trust them any more with quotes. If you can give me the source of that quote, I'd be glad to look at it. (You can see examples of their quotation problems here and here.)
First of all, it's not a good idea to get your information on Catholocism from anti-Catholics. Now, to address some of your points:
ChildOfZion wrote:
During the dark and middle ages, the Catholic Chruch was the church of christianity, and they were horrible people.
Not all of them. There are both good and bad people in every church. Get over it. There was a bad Apostle. The Apostles weren't wrong because Judas was among their ranks any more than any other church is wrong because they have sinners among theirs.
ChildOfZion wrote:
So many millions of innocent bloodshed during the inquisitions and crusades, all in the name of god.
Millions? I'd love to see your numbers on that (again, from an unbiased source please). The fact is both the religious and non-religious have waged wars… Catholics, Protestants, Muslims, Hindus,… Communists.. etc. So what? How does it make their teachings necessarily wrong because they sinned? This is the ad-hominem logical fallacy.
ChildOfZion wrote:
If their church was the True Church, their should have been a time of peace and great love in the world considering the Pope wielded all authority over the Kings of Europe.
Says who? You? Show me that in Scripture please. This is your own opinion.
ChildOfZion wrote:
The pope recently even apologized for the wrongdoings during that time period.
Then accept his apology for events hundreds of years ago that don't affect you and move on with your life. People sin.. get over it… it doesn't make what they teach wrong… it only means they messed up.. people aren't perfrect. Time for you to forgive already.
ChildOfZion wrote:
That's why the protestant reformation occured.
No it isn't. This is. The 95 theses posted by Martin Luther.
ChildOfZion wrote:
Scholar after scholar emerged with their own opinions saying why the Catolic Church was wrong.
And scholar after scholar emerged with their own opinions saying why the Catholic Church was right. There are arguments on both sides. What Catholic scholars have you read?
ChildOfZion wrote:
The Bible says not to join in with the pagans and their feasts, but the Catholic Church did it anyway.
No they didn't. They tried to get rid of pagan feasts.
ChildOfZion wrote:
We define that the Holy Apostolic See and the Roman Pontiff hold primacy over the whole earth.
Primacy, or ultimate spiritual authority. This statement says the Catholic Church believes it's the true church of Christ. This is exactly the same claim your church makes. So you'll have to point the finger back at yourself for making the same claim on this one.
ChildOfZion wrote:
All names which in the Scriptures are applied to Christ, by virtue of which it is established
Not a complete sentence.. so we don't know what this is saying… try again.
ChildOfZion wrote:
The Pope is not only the representative of Jesus Christ, but he is Jesus Christ, Himself,
Again, not a complete sentence,… try again.
ChildOfZion wrote:
We hold upon this earth the place of God Almighty
Source and context please. Again, this could be a statement saying they believe they are the true church of Christ (the same claim your church makes), but I'd need to see the context and an unbiased source.
@ChildOfZion I am sorry your church had some bad people. A grudge is a heavy thing to carry though. But we are all sinners, and most churches have good and bad people in it. Even if you think of a certain sin like adultery you have commited sin. Look at what Jesus said in Matthew 5:28. However even in the Bible there are people that would seem like they should not even belong in any of a so called "true" religion or church. Let's look at some people in the Bible that would seem like if they were bad and or sinful people yet God used them such as David the murderous womanizer, Solomon had wisdom but hardly used it and was a womanizer as well, Noah was a drunkard, Isaiah preached naked, Elijah was suicidal, Jacob was a liar, Peter denied Christ (how many times?), a man who hardly knew Jesus went with him to paradise even though he was a sentenced thief, need I go on. Besides we are not the message just the messengers. I believe it's time for you to learn how to forgive, because Jesus showed us forgiveness even though we are sinners and we need to do the same to others. God wants spiritual fruit, not religious nuts.Its funny that ChildofZion asks why put your trust in "scholars" and not the Bible… You have done the same thing you let them fill your head with only PARTS of scriptures they want you to know then they tell us who read the bible and clearly see their misinterpretations we are using are OWN MINDS!! Whose mind are we suppose to use I think Emilys Assumption of Braindead people is true. Are you Korean? are you from Korea? Have you heard of NCPCOG? They also say they are founded by Ahnsahnghong but guess what!!! they dont worship mother and you know why??? Because Ahnsahnghong never spoke of it in his writings of a mother god what he actually said was In "Problems with New Jerusalem…." that his first spiritual wife was crazy and going to hell possibly for claiming to be the mother god… Really funny that you would worship another mother god after he died. lol Have you spoken to this lady? Have you heard her say she is God For jesus did not boast who he was loud and arragantly but HE DID say who he was to all in contact in a humbling manner… I dont think she has I dont believe she will take the fall for any of you on Judgement day. Taking scripture if the say He is over there in South Korea, Dont go out He ors she for your matter is not there… You think you know the parable of the fig tree when you do not know i am listening if you think that you do…
Hailey Stevens wrote:
"The Spirit and the bride say, "Come"!…
I was reading this verse and a question came to mind. If Zhang Gil Jah is supposed to be the bride then shouldn't she be saying "Come"? Why hasn't she gone on national television to reveal her true identity if she is the female "god"? Does anyone know if she has ever proclaimed that she is god? I looked on the english.watv.org website and I could not find a direct statement from her to this effect. I see sermons mentioning the bride as the mother image but never naming who she is. Maybe I missed it? Any WMSCOG member out there willing to clarify?
Also, why doesn't she say who she is on her foundation website if she is really "god" and if allegedly the world can only be saved by her? She names herself "Chairwoman" not "god" who is supposed to say "Come". http://eng.weloveu.or.kr/intro/foundation.asp
This just seems strange to me.
yes she did claim to be God, right after this past new years & after the video on you tube of Ahnsahnghong titled-I HAVE ALREADY COME, missionary read a sermon given by her, where she said, I have already come too!, plus she said the ark will be complete this year, and father is coming this year.
Hailey Stevens wrote:
Also, why doesn't she say who she is on her foundation website if she is really "god" and if allegedly the world can only be saved by her? She names herself "Chairwoman" not "god" who is supposed to say "Come". http://eng.weloveu.or.kr/intro/foundation.asp
This just seems strange to me.
She IS chairwoman of Weloveu foundation that's an invalid argument… Also if you run a church that calls you God you are defacto saying you are God
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