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About Saint Ignatius of Antioch: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignatius_of_Antioch
Letter of Ignatius to Smyrneans, ca 105 AD.
Ignatius, also called Theophorus, to the Church of God the Father and the beloved Jesus Christ; a church mercifully endowed with every gift; overflowing with faith and love; lacking in no gift; radiant with God's splendor, and fruitful mother of saints. To the Church at Smyrna in Asia I send best wishes for irreproachableness of sentiment and loyalty to the word of God.
1. I extol Jesus Christ, the God who has granted you such wisdom. For I have observed that you are thoroughly trained in unshaken faith, being nailed, as it were, to the Cross of the Lord Jesus Christ both in body and in soul, and that you are well established in love through the Blood of Christ and firmly believe in Our Lord: He is really of the line of David according to the flesh, and the Son of God by the will and power of God; was really born of a virgin, and baptized by John in order to comply with every ordinance. Under Pontius Pilate and the tetrarch Herod He was really nailed to the cross in the flesh for our sake–of whose fruit we are, in virtue of His most blessed Passion. And thus, through the Resurrection, He raised a banner for all times for His saints and faithful followers, whether among the Jews or the Gentiles, that they might be united in a single body, that is, His Church.
2. All these sufferings, assuredly, He underwent for our sake, that we might be saved. And He suffered really, as He also really raised Himself from the dead. It is not as some unbelievers say, who maintain that His suffering was a make-believe. In reality, it is they that are make- believes: and, as their notion, so their end: they will be bodiless and ghostlike shapes!
3. For myself, I know and believe that He was in the flesh even after the Resurrection. And when He came to Peter and Peter's companions, He said to them: "Here; feel me and see that I am not a bodiless ghost." Immediately they touched Him and, through this contact with His Flesh and Spirit, believed. For the same reason they despised death and, in fact, proved stronger than death. Again, after the Resurrection, He ate and drank with them like a being of flesh and blood, though spiritually one with the Father.
4. I am urging these things on you, beloved, although I know that you are of the same mind. I am cautioning you betimes, however, against wild beasts in human form, whom you ought not only not to receive, but, if possible, even avoid meeting. Only pray for them, if somehow they may change their mind–a difficult thing! But that is in the power of Jesus Christ, our true Life. Surely, if those things were done by Our Lord as a mere make-believe, then I in my chains, too, am a make-believe! Why, moreover, did I surrender myself to death, to fire, to the sword, to wild beasts? Well, to be near the sword is to be near God; to be in the claws of wild beasts is to be in the hands of God. Only let it be done in the name of Jesus Christ! To suffer with Him I endure all things, if He, who became perfect man, gives me the strength.
5. Some disown Him through ignorance, or, rather, were disowned by Him, being advocates of death rather than the truth. They were not convinced by the prophecies or by the Law of Moses; no, not even to this day by the Gospel or the sufferings of our own people; for they entertain the same view of us. Really, what good does anyone do me if he praises me, but blasphemes my Lord by not admitting that He carried living flesh about Him? He who does not admit this, has absolutely disowned Him, and what he carries about him is a corpse. Their names–names of unbelievers they are!- -I do not think advisable to write down. In fact, I even wish I did not remember them, until they change their mind concerning the Passion, which is our resurrection.
6. Let no one be deceived! Even the heavenly powers and the angels in their splendor and the principalities, both visible and invisible, must either believe in the Blood of Christ, or else face damnation. Let him grasp it who can. Let no rank puff up anyone; for faith and love are paramount–the greatest blessings in the world. Observe those who hold erroneous opinions concerning the grace of Jesus Christ which has come to us, and see how they run counter to the mind of God! They concern themselves with neither works of charity, nor widows, nor orphans, nor the distressed, nor those in prison or out of it, nor the hungry or thirsty.
7. From Eucharist and prayer they hold aloof, because they do not confess that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, which suffered for our sins, and which the Father in His loving-kindness raised from the dead. And so, those who question the gift of God perish in their contentiousness. It would be better for them to have love, so as to share in the resurrection. It is proper, therefore, to avoid associating with such people and not to speak about them either in private or in public, but to study the Prophets attentively and, especially, the Gospel, in which the Passion is revealed to us and the Resurrection shown in its fulfillment. Shun division as the beginning of evil.
8. You must all follow the lead of the bishop, as Jesus Christ followed that of the Father; follow the presbytery as you would the Apostles; reverence the deacons as you would God's commandment. Let no one do anything touching the Church, apart from the bishop. Let that celebration of the Eucharist be considered valid which is held under the bishop or anyone to whom he has committed it. Where the bishop appears, there let the people be, just as where Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church. It is not permitted without authorization from the bishop either to baptize or to hold an agape; but whatever he approves is also pleasing to God. Thus everything you do will be proof against danger and valid.
9. It is consonant with reason, therefore, that we should come to our senses, while we still have time to change our ways and turn to God. It is well to revere God and bishop. He who honors a bishop is honored by God. He who does anything without the knowledge of the bishop worships the devil. May all things, then, be yours in abundance through grace, for you deserve it. You have brought relief to me in every respect, and may Jesus Christ do so to you! Whether I was absent or present, you have shown me love. Your reward is God, to whom you will come if you endure all things for His sake.
10. As to Philo and Rheus Agathopus, who accompanied me in the name of God, it was good of you to give them a warm reception as to servants of Christ God. For their part, they thank the Lord on your behalf, because you offered them losers. A ransom for you are my life and my chains, which you did not despise and of which you were not ashamed. Neither will Jesus Christ, our consummate hope, be ashamed of you.
11. Your prayer made its way to the Church at Antioch in Syria. Coming from there in chains radiant with divine splendor, I send greetings to all. Not that I deserve to belong to that community, being the least of its members; but by the will (of God) I was granted this favor–no, not because of any conscious deed, but because of the grace of God. Would that this grace were given me in perfection, that through your prayer I may make my way to God! Now, that your own work may be made perfect both on earth and in heaven, it is proper, for the honor of God, that your Church should send a God- empowered delegate to go to Syria and congratulate the people on enjoying peace, having recovered their normal greatness, and having their full status restored to them. It therefore appears to me to be a God-inspired undertaking to send one of your number with a letter for the purpose of joining in the celebration of their God-given tranquillity, and because they have, thanks to your prayer, at last made port. Be perfect, therefore, and devise a perfect method. You need only be willing to do well, and God is ready to assist you.
12. In their affection the brethren at Troas wish to be remembered to you. It is from here that I send this letter through the kindness of Burrus, whom you conjointly with your brethren, the Ephesians, commissioned to accompany me. He has given me every possible comfort. And would that all might imitate him, for he is a pattern of what a minister of God should be. God's grace will reward him in every way. Greetings to the bishop, that man of God, to the God-minded presbytery, to the deacons my fellow servants, to the whole community, individually and collectively, in the name of Jesus Christ, in His Flesh and Blood, in His Passion and Resurrection, both corporal and spiritual, in unity with God and with you. Grace be to you and mercy and peace and patient endurance forever.
13. Greetings to the families of my brethren, including their wives and children, and to the virgins who are enrolled among the widows. Farewell in the power of the Father! Philo, who is with me, wishes to be remembered to you. Offer my respects to the household of Tavia, and I pray that she may be firmly rooted in faith and love, both carnal and spiritual. Give my regards to Alce, that most dear friend of mine, and to the incomparable Daphnus, and to Eutecnus, and to all the rest by name. Farewell in the grace.
The pharisees changed a lot of scripture even claimed the God given authority using scripture out of context.
They even claimed their authority on scripture was greater than God's (and no not by disagreeing with Jesus but literally saying it was greater than God's)
The talmud is full of it
Midrash Pesikta Rabbi:
A Person must not say I will not keep the commandment of the elders because they are not from the Torah. The Almighty says to such a person, No My son! Rather all that they decree upon you, observe! As it is written, According to the instruction which they teach you(Dt 17:11) Even I (God) must obey their decree, as it is written, You will decree and He will fulfill it. (Job 22:28)
irrelevent it was the same people same blasphemy same hubris etc
irrelevent it was the same people same blasphemy same hubris etc
So says your church.scripture as a whole seems to not agree with peter as the leader just one verse out of context
Irenaeus, I'm more of an observer of this conversation, but I need to ask a question for clarity. What does the binding and loosing verse mean to you? I think it means something different to you than it does to me.
On the topic of verses and writings:
1.) Acts 1:2
"until the day he [Jesus] was taken up to heaven, after giving instructions through the Holy Spirit to the apostles he had chosen"
2.) Acts 17:2
"As was his custom, Paul went into the synagogue, … on … Sabbath days"
3.) Acts 24:5
"We have found this man [Paul] to be a troublemaker, stirring up riots among the Jews all over the world. He is a ringleader of the Nazarene sect"
4.) Writings of Epiphanius (Pritz, Nazarene Jewish Christianity, p. 33-34)
"they did not call themselves Christians, but Nazarenes … with the Jews they do not agree because of their [Nazarene] belief in Christ, with the Christians [sic] because they [the Nazarene] are trained in the Law, in circumcision, the Sabbath and other things"[****alternatively strike "[the Nazarene]" addendum, and read as: Christians are trained in the Sabbath. Either interpretation testifies to Christian Sabbath.]
5.) (Tertullian. Against Marcion, Book IV, Chapter 12. Excerpted from Ante-Nicene Fathers, Volume 3. Edited by Philip Schaff, D.D., LL.D. American Edition, 1885. Online Edition Copyright © 2005 by K. Knight)
"Marcion … displayed a hatred … He was only professedly following the Creator, as being His Christ, in this very hatred of the Sabbath"
6.) (Irenaeus. Adversus Haereses. Book III, Chapter 3, Verse 4. Excerpted from Ante-Nicene Fathers, Volume 1. Edited by Alexander Roberts & James Donaldson. American Edition, 1885. Online Edition Copyright © 2004 by K. Knight)
"And Polycarp himself replied to Marcion, who met him on one occasion, and [Marcion] said, "Dost thou know me?" "I do know thee, the first-born of Satan."
7.) (Irenaeus. Adversus Haeres. Book III, Chapter 4, Verse 3 and Chapter 3, Verse 4).
"But Polycarp also was not only instructed by apostles, and conversed with many who had seen Christ, but was also, by apostles in Asia, appointed bishop of the Church in Smyrna…always taught the things which he had learned from the apostles, and which the Church has handed down, and which alone are true."
8.) (Alexander Roberts and James Donaldson, editors); American Edition copyright © 1885. Electronic version copyright © 1997 by New Advent, Inc)
"Polycarp was sojourning in Rome in the time of Anicetus, although a slight controversy had arisen"
9.) Council of Nicea
"At the council we also considered the issue of our holiest day, Easter" [a.k.a Passover controversy]
10.) (Alexander Roberts and James Donaldson, editors); American Edition copyright © 1885. Electronic version copyright © 1997 by New Advent, Inc)
"neither could Anicetus persuade Polycarp to forego the observance [of Passover], … these things had been always observed by John the disciple … and by other apostles … nor … could Polycarp succeed in persuading Anicetus to keep [Passover]
11.) Eusebius, "23", in Schaff, Church History, Christian Classic Ethereal Library (CCEL).
"The Quartodeciman controversy arose because Christians in the Roman province of Asia (Western Anatolia) celebrated Passover on the 14th of the first month (Aviv), while the churches in the rest of the world observed the practice of celebrating Easter on the following Sunday mistakingly calling it ("the day of the resurrection of our Saviour")" [***See 10. "Always observed by john the disciple". See also the Bible for Apostle Paul "whenever you do this" in regard to again keeping the Passover]
12.) This abundant information should be more than enough for you to see which people truley possessed original instructions from Christ, and which people were fabricating man-made ordinances which still pervert Christianity to this day in addition to lying about their origins with Peter for they are not doing the things the apostles did.
Hi, WMS Brother. Thanks for the quotes. Since I have encountered so many misquotes from the wmscog, I have learned to look them up myself. Have you looked these up for yourself?
It might take some time to get them all verified, but here is the one I started with. You said,
4.) Writings of Epiphanius (Pritz, Nazarene Jewish Christianity, p. 33-34)
"they did not call themselves Christians, but Nazarenes … with the Jews they do not agree because of their [Nazarene] belief in Christ, with the Christians [sic] because they [the Nazarene] are trained in the Law, in circumcision, the Sabbath and other things"[****alternatively strike "[the Nazarene]" addendum, and read as: Christians are trained in the Sabbath. Either interpretation testifies to Christian Sabbath.]
Why did you put "[sic]" after "Christians"? "[sic]" is used to signify that the error belongs to the original writing, but there is no error–that's exactly the way it is written in the book. There is no spelling mistake, and from the context, you can understand the author really did mean "Christians".
The relevant chapter of this book is available online here: http://books.google.com/books?id=vh84AAAAIAAJ&pg=PA29&source=gbs_toc_r&cad=4#v=onepage&q&f=false
I understand your point to be that since Paul was called "a ringleader of the Nazarene sect" and since Epiphanus said the Nazarene's are "trained in…the Sabbath" that you conclude that Epiphanus is stating the early Christians kept the Jewish Sabbath. I wanted to see if that's really what Epiphanus really said, so I read it. It's a very interesting read.
Starting on page 30, Epiphanus begins talking about the "Nazarenes" and says,
"They did not give themselves the name of Christ, or that of Jesus, but they called themselves Nazarenes. All Christians were called Nazarenes once. For a short time they were also given the name Iessaians, before the disciples in Antioch began to be called Christians."
It says, on page 33, that there was a "Nasaraean" heresy before Jesus. Then says, regarding Acts 24:5,
"For it is no wonder that the Apostle [Paul] admitted he was a Nazarene because everybody called Christians with that name at the time, because of the city of Nazareth and because at that time there was no other name in use…. the holy disciples of Christ called themselves disciples of Jesus, which they really were. When they heard the name Nazarenes from others, they did not reject it, because they saw what was meant by those who called them by this name, viz. that they called them by this name because of Christ, since our Lord himself was also called Jesus the Nazarene…"
And so it seems Epiphanus is making a distinction between when the first Christians allowed others to call them Nazarenes, and this group which is different who called themselves also "Nazarenes."
So who was this other group that called themselves "Nazarenes"? Starting on the bottom of page 33,
"These heresies, just mentioned, of which we here are giving a brief sketch, passing over the name of Jesus, did not call themselves Iessaians and did not keep the name Jews; they did not call themselves Christians, but Nazarenes, taking this name from the place Nazareth. But actually they remained wholly Jewish and nothing else."
He offers them some praise, but then says, top of page 34,
"Only in this respect they differ from the Jews and Christians: with the Jews they do not agree because of their belief in Christ, with the Christians because they are trained in the Law, in circumcision, the Sabbath and the other things."
He calls these Nazarenes heretical, and I'll continue on page 34,
"For thus it is with every heresy, often trying to outdo each other in the matter prescribed concerning the keeping of the Sabbath and circumcision and other things, even though our Lord freely gave us a more perfect way. And how can such maintain any argument, when they do not listen to what was said by the Holy Spirit through the apostles to the believers from the Gentiles: 'to lay [on you] no greater burden than these essentials: refrain from blood and from things strangled and from fornication and from things sacrificed to idols'? And how will they not fall away from the grace of God when Paul the holy apostle says that 'if you are circimcised Christ will be of no benefit to you,' 'you who boast in the Law, you have fallen from grace'?"
I'm curious to know if it says in context what you thought it said from the quote you gave.
It's kind of late, so I'll look up another quote tomorrow.
The [sic] was not mine, that was already in the editorial source I used.
Not the "Jewish" sabbath. The sabbath day was observed, regularly and always, but the "example" given to us by Jesus and Paul is to preach and do the spiritual work of God on those days, in the church (synagogue) rather than the physical Jewish regulations, which are on the exact same day, because it is the exact same sabbath; using the New Covenent given to man.
The crux of the matter is that Jesus gave the apostles instructions right before ascending into heaven.
Taking those instructions, Paul then went on to keep the sabbath day regularly, as his custom, indeed "each" (or) "every" sabbath.
Epiphanus criticized the Nazarene sect as Jews "and nothing else" indeed. He calls them heretical, true. And afterwards perhaps they did fall from grace because of their obsession with the sabbath and the Jewish "shadow-reality" of the law. As every other denomination too also fell from grace or was murdered.
In fact many letters were written about this to many churches from both Apostle Paul and John and Peter, Titus, all of them wrote letters of grave warning to the churches who had members and leaders falling away.
It remains that Apostle Paul kept the sabbath, and Apostle Paul after Jesus was a "founding" member of the Nazarene sect, the commandments they kept were from Paul and from Jesus. One of them was the Sabbath, regardless of how obsessed they eventually became, and regardless of the division that happened afterward. They did not "make it up" on their own, rather as quoted, they concerned themselves with the law given to them (which was given to them by Christ and Paul) too much.
As much as they are criticized for being Jews, or different now, they were at least at one point: the same. Calling them different still does not erase the fact that Paul kept the Sabbath, and that he is the very same Paul who passed on his customs to the Nazarene, customs he recieved from Christ.
I really don’t know about these feasts of time keeping. I feel we are placing too much on it. Is it possible that God just wants us to love him? Catholic or not? Provided we have not come up with our own idol like Wmscog?
Sarah, while love is undeniably the greatest commandment, there is still more written in the New Covenant than just that. We should observe the former, without neglecting the latter.
Further, god describes in detail all the reasons why he detests mankind in the last days, and the reason why the entire world must be destroyed. It is not only because they do not love him, but also because his own people have "violated" and "desecrated" the covenant and his laws. In a vision of the future, Ezekiel himself testifies that God showed him people in the Church of God bowing down to Tammuz.
Whether or not this is indeed literally Tammuz, they must have been doing -something- unholy and horrifying in Ezekiel and God's vision for him to compare them to Tammuz (sun god) worshippers (charecterized by observing the Holy Sun Day).
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