[genny]

In another thread, fromtheotherside, speaking of the materials presented againt the wmscog, said "none of your evidences speak for itself.  if you have such evidence present it without your explanation."

I presented several 'evidences without explanation' there, but I think it would be a good idea to take each one separately into its own thread.  Here's the third one:

Regarding the teaching that Isaac was God.  Isaac lies in Genesis 26.  God does not lie (Titus 1:2).

I originally did not link to my research about it, because fromtheotherside did not want explanation, but if you'd like to see the research, I've collected it here:

http://encountering-ahnsahnghong.blogspot.com/2011/04/who-was-isaac-really.html

There was a bit of discussion about this on the other thread, so I'm going to copy the relevant posts here.

[genny]

[genny]

genny wrote:

Just redirecting this comment from https://www.examiningthewmscog.com/forum/topic.php?id=2344&page=3

fromtheotherside wrote:

You keep saying this but again you're putting God under YOUR standards and thoughts

Hebrews 6:18

It was impossible for God to lie.

This doesn't mean that he is under some type of moral standard or law that keeps God from lying, it means that no matter what comes out of God's mouth is it is righteous, 

Ah, Lord GOD! surely thou hast greatly deceived this people.</dd>

Even if God deceives people it is not evil if YOU OR I were to it would be evil, because God does things that are for the GOOD, no matter what his action maybe, it is for the greater good that is why even if he deceives it is righteous!</dd>

2 Chronicles 18:22

Now therefore, behold, the Lord hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of these thy prophets.<

copied from https://www.examiningthewmscog.com/forum/topic.php?id=4486&page=2

[genny]

genny wrote:

So you believe that God would lie or deceive if there was a 'good' purpose in it?

Can snow be hot?  No, because the nature of snow is to be cold.  If it were hot it would be water, not snow.

It is part of God's nature to be eternal, therefore He cannot stop being God.  It is part of God's nature to be all-knowing, therefore He cannot learn anything new.

Likewise, truth is part of God's nature (Is. 45:19; John 3:33), so He cannot lie (Titus 1:2; Heb. 6:18).  What do you call someone who lies?  A liar.  God is not a liar.

If we believe the Bible to be inspired by God, then we must believe that it does not contradict itself.  If it appears to conradict itself (such as with 2 Chron. 18), then we need to seek another possible explanation.  One is that since the Ahab refused to believe the truth, God let him believe a lie (like 2 Thess. 2:10).  Another is that since Ahab wanted to believe the false prophets, and God was ready to bring judgment on him, God allowed him to have what he wanted, and allowed a false spirit to entice him to battle (2 Chron. 18:20-21).

There are at least two problems with accepting that God lies.

Once you believe that God would lie, He is no longer trustworthy.  You cannot trust anything He says.  It calls the entire Bible into question.

Also, John 8:44 tells us that the devil is the "father of lies."  If you believe that God lies, then you must believe Satan is God's father, or at least that Satan and God are on the same level.  That doesn't make sense, does it?

Here's a good article about God's nature: http://www.letusreason.org/Apolo2.htm

So in summary, your answer for point #3 is that the WMSCOG teaches God does lie.  That's something people should be aware of.

copied from https://www.examiningthewmscog.com/forum/topic.php?id=4486&page=2

[genny]

fromtheotherside wrote:

You are interpreting it as a lie, again that is your standards, and God can decieve you which is the exact thing in 2chro 18.  That is deception.  and where did you get the notion WMSCOG teaches God lies, in yourself that is a lie.  and how is that an answer to #3, I never said that, you take things and put them to your standards and also interpret the bible and God to YOUR standards which God is above.  God sent a spirit to lie then let me ask is this spirit sinning?  and aren't all spirits from God? can you tell me why he wasn't punished for this? Isn't lying a sin?  The way you view the bible which is by YOUR standards makes every thing contradicting.

https://www.examiningthewmscog.com/forum/topic.php?id=4486&page=3

[genny]

genny wrote:

So are you saying that when you posted about God lying in the other thread (where it hadn't been mentioned and was out of the flow of conversation), you were not meaning to address the point here?  If that's so, then it would be helpful if you use the 'quote' feature so it's clear what you are responding to, particularly if you are responding to the post other than the last one.

Where did I get the notion the WMSCOG teaches that God lies?  You just told me so.  Did I misunderstand you?  Did you mean to say that God does not lie?

You said, "God sent a spirit to lie then let me ask is this spirit sinning?  and aren't all spirits from God?"

Is Satan also a spirit?  Does Satan sin?  Is he from God?  What does God allow Satan to do (think of Job)? 

We could get into some interesting spiritual questions, but the issue is, if the WMSCOG teaches that God lies, people ought to know.

Copied from https://www.examiningthewmscog.com/forum/topic.php?id=4486&page=3

[genny]

fromtheotherside wrote:

yea make more lies Genny, I said that's your interpretation you concieve it as a lie.  But God is above your standards.  Also that spirit is not satan and satan will be punished for all his evils.  Does not God decieve? but if you did it would be a sin, yet if God does it is not cuz he is God his ways are not evil.

fromtheotherside wrote:

To reply to #3 Was God upset that isaac told them she was his sister? God has no problems with it, then why should you? God is the Judge of what counts for a lie not you, again your standards are not Gods. 

Copied from https://www.examiningthewmscog.com/forum/topic.php?id=4486&page=3

[genny]

genny wrote:

Lie… "an intentional untruth, a false statement made with deliberate intent to deceive"

A misunderstanding is different than a lie.  If I misunderstand you, then explain again, don't accuse me of lying.

Genesis 26:7 "When the men of that place asked him about his wife, he said, “She is my sister,” because he was afraid to say, “She is my wife.” He thought, “The men of this place might kill me on account of Rebekah, because she is beautiful.”"

So are you saying that Isaac did not lie?  That I only perceive it as a lie, but it's not really?  I disagree.

But let me try rephrasing and you can tell me if I understand your response to #3 yet — It doesn't matter if God lies because if God lied it wouldn't really be a lie because it's God doing it.

I find it interesting that your response focuses on whether or not God lies, instead of whether or not Isaac was God.

Copied from https://www.examiningthewmscog.com/forum/topic.php?id=4486&page=3

[genny]

Elievalkyrie wrote:

Reading your discussions here got me exasperated.

FTOS' view is that no matter what Jesus did, even if He didn't follow human laws, He is still sinless because He is, in FTOS' opinion, above the law. If this is the case, how does the people know what is true good and true bad? If it is good that is because God sees it as good and said it is good so it can never be considered bad. IF Jesus, living as a man, saw it fit to not obey all the laws, that means that it is okay for men to not obey also because everything Jesus do is good as God and people are just trying to follow His examples.

Let's apply this in everyday life so we can understand it a little bit better.

A parent role is to guide children into knowing what is good and what is bad. If a father says to his child, "Smoking is bad" but then later on a child sees his father smoking, the child will reach two conclusions in his mind. (This is the situation IF we accept that Jesus really did not keep all the laws).

Conclusion 1. Father said smoking is bad, but he is doing it, that means father is bad!

Conclusion 2. Father said smoking is bad, but I don't believe father is bad, that means smoking is good!

So let's apply this to God and our situation. Ofcourse we cannot accept #1. Do all agree? We also cannot accept #2 because this implies that God (as the father in the story) is capable of lying. He told the child smoking is bad, but it really isn't since He is doing it.

Since we cannot accept the two conclusions, that means there is something wrong with the given situation. We MUST maintain that Jesus DID follow all the human laws. So that we can reach the conclusion that Jesus is good and can never do wrong.

Now I realize, FTOS have a different conclusion made so that he does not have to change the situation. This conclusion defies logic and that is:

Conclusion 3. Father said smoking is bad. I can't smoke but he can. If he does not smoke, it is good. If he smokes, it is still good. As long as he is the only one doing it.

Am I right with this, FTOS? If this is what the wmscog teaches their members, then I can now understand why many of them still remain with the church even when they find evidences that Ahnsanghong and Zhang committed adultery.

Copied from https://www.examiningthewmscog.com/forum/topic.php?id=4486&page=3

[genny]

Simon wrote:

fromtheotherside wrote:

To reply to #3 Was God upset that isaac told them she was his sister? God has no problems with it, then why should you? God is the Judge of what counts for a lie not you, again your standards are not Gods. 

whether God is upset or not whether it is moral or not whether it is okay or not doesn't change that it is a lie.

Copied from https://www.examiningthewmscog.com/forum/topic.php?id=4486&page=3

[genny]

genny wrote:

I've been thinking more about this and trying to think of parallel situations too.  Here are some more to think about…

Justice is part of God's character.  Sometimes God does things we perceive as unjust.  Does that mean God is unjust?  No, but it does mean that as an all-knowing God, if we knew what He knows about the situation, we would understand why His actions really were just.  So we cannot call God unjust simply because we perceive His action to be unjust.

Love is part of God's character.  Sometimes God does things we perceive as unloving.  Does that mean God is unloving?  No, but again it does mean that if we knew what He knows about the situation, we would understand why His actions really were loving.  So again, we cannot call God unloving simply because we perceive His action to be unloving.

Is it the same with lying?  Let's check…

Truth is part of God's character.  We cannot call God a liar.  In the case of Isaac, did we perceive him to be lying, but if we knew what God knows, would we understand that he was really telling the truth?  Isaac said Rebekah was his sister when she wasn't–she was his wife.  Is there anything we might not know that would turn this apparent lie into the truth?  No, it is a fact that she was his wife, not his sister.  So in this case, either God is a liar or Isaac isn't God.

Does that make sense?

Copied from https://www.examiningthewmscog.com/forum/topic.php?id=4486&page=3

[genny]

Elievalkyrie wrote:

I am missing something here. Who said Isaac is God???

genny wrote:

Ahnsahnghong did.  I'll get the quote for you.  Just a minute…

genny wrote:

Here.  I'm pasting this from one of my blog articles:

Noticed what he said on page 171 (Chapter 12), regarding Genesis 18:14, in which the Lord appeared to Abraham:

 

Then Abraham made some bread and took a tender calf, and he brought some curds and milk and the calf which he had prepared, and set them before God, who ate and said: "I will surely return to you about this time next year, and Sarah your wife will have a son" (Gen. 18:10).  By these words God meant that He would be born as Isaac.  [emphasis mine]

 

And then on page 185 (Chapter 12), regarding Genesis 18:1-10, Galatians 3:16, and John 8:56, he says:

The above passages show that Abraham, who firmly believed in God's promise that He would return to him at the appointed time and be born as his [Abraham's] son through the body of Sarah, rejoiced at the thought of seeing the birth of Isaac, and he saw it and was glad.  [emphasis mine]

genny wrote:

I should have mentioned, the quotes are from the green book, The Mystery of God and the Spring of the Water of Life.

Copied from https://www.examiningthewmscog.com/forum/topic.php?id=4486&page=3

[genny]

fromtheotherside wrote:

So what Isaac said sarah is his sister, God is the Judge and if it justified in God's eyes it's nothing, maybe to you guys its  something to pick at, but in God's eyes its probably justified, I won't say yes cuz I'm not God and I don't pretend to know every thought of God, but Isaac was in a life or death situation, so he said sarah is his sister, hey spiritual we are brothers and sisters so what, did he do it to hurt someone, no, did he do it to any arguably immoral intent, no, did God get upset with him, I can't see that in the bible, actually he was blessed with so much more, so we can probably say God saw it as just. So if God has no problem with it we shouldn't be picking at it either.

genny wrote:

Just checking, fromtheotherside… Do you believe that Isaac was God?

fromtheotherside wrote:

let me ask you is there any proof that he wasn't? Also why would it be hard for you to accept that? Is it because you don't want to?? What I want to say is, why not have an open mind and ask yourself why couldn't he be. God comes in many forms and Jesus wasn't the first time he came in the flesh to this earth, even showing himself to Abraham and ate food and water and washed his feet.  Also does this go against anything you believe?? saying this is possible or true does it make Jesus any less your saviour?? I think that all of you don't have any mind to really try to see truth in my arguments, but on the contrary, the first thing that comes to you mind is how can I prove him wrong.  Am I incorrect in my conclusions about you guys?? this isn't meant to be personal so don't take it the wrong way.

genny wrote:

I'll take that as a yes.

Copied from https://www.examiningthewmscog.com/forum/topic.php?id=4486&page=3

[genny]

Joshua wrote:

fromtheotherside wrote:

So what Isaac said sarah is his sister, God is the Judge and if it justified in God's eyes it's nothing, maybe to you guys its  something to pick at, but in God's eyes its probably justified, I won't say yes cuz I'm not God and I don't pretend to know every thought of God, but Isaac was in a life or death situation, so he said sarah is his sister, hey spiritual we are brothers and sisters so what, did he do it to hurt someone, no, did he do it to any arguably immoral intent, no, did God get upset with him, I can't see that in the bible, actually he was blessed with so much more, so we can probably say God saw it as just. So if God has no problem with it we shouldn't be picking at it either.

 I just want to help here so no one gets really confused. It wasn't Sarah that Issac said was his sister, it was his wife Rebecca. Sarah was his mother not his wife.

fromtheotherside wrote:

o lolz thanks joshua that was my mistake .   

Simon wrote:

You are strawmanning here, no one is judging the morals only stating the action

fromtheotherside wrote:

yea and it's justified by god so there is nothing wrong with it.

Simon wrote:

and who said there was?

fromtheotherside wrote:

so it's not a legit argument to bring up with isaac

Copied from https://www.examiningthewmscog.com/forum/topic.php?id=4486&page=3

 

[genny]

genny wrote:

So, fromtheotherside, we have discussed point 3, and I think I understand what you are trying to say (not saying I agree with it though).  Please tell me if I have it right this time:

Reply to #3 — The WMSCOG does teach that Isaac was God, and they don't see any problem with God lying.

We've each expressed our view.  If I have summarized your position correctly here, then we can let readers come to their own conclusions.

copied from http://www.examiningthewmscog.com/forum/topic.php?id=4486&page=4

---

 

If anyone would like to add to this discussion, please go right ahead.

[emil]

genny wrote:

Just checking, fromtheotherside… Do you believe that Isaac was God?

fromtheotherside wrote:

let me ask you is there any proof that he wasn't? 

Just bumping up this thread as it ended without conclusion. FTOS response is amusing. There are probably a few thousand names mentioned in the bible. I don't know if the bible explicitly mentions which of those were not god. If the bible does not say someone is not god, do we have the license to say that person is god?

Finally FTOS did not answer Genny's question: Do you, FTOS, believe that Isaac was God?