- Topic
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z241QqdoaCg
New testimony from a bible students encounter with them, I like how she uses the bible to disprove them.
Good video! It is interesting that some of the wms are now calling it a "Revelation Seminar." Their reputation as "Elohist Society" or "Followers of Elohim" must be catching up with them, making it more difficult to recruit. That is what I find unacceptable: the deceptive recruiting practices. If they were up front with important information, then I could accept that. But they are not.
IMHO, this video is….almost completely worthless.
At the macro level it is this lady telling viewers what scripture means. Doesn't this group do the same thing?
Something that is "not of God" does not make it a cult. Any Hassanite knows this. Strange beliefs does not make something a cult. At least MM points out the apparent change of cover in the recruiting process. The only problem: members won't see that as deception. Jesus encouraged to go out like doves or something along those lines that many Bible groups use to justify lying/deception? They will see it as a counter play to Satan trying to ruin their church, which begs the question why they see it that way. Answer(?), because they don't get / don't allow / discourage the reception of
outside information.
I can believe the frog in the river in my backyard is God, and that's not "of God", but if followers get taught that any information critical to this viewpoint is evil then there is a long list if groups that do this, and that is the main point as far as I'm concerned.
What I'm saying is that the video does next to nothing to support the title she uses.
I have to disagree Nohandle. Any video that clearly identifies this group and red flags it is doing something valuable. Her experience with it would probably make a person who is just being recruited want to do a little research. That is what needs to happen.
What I'm saying is that the video does next to nothing to support the title she uses.
Not true at all. She blows holes in several parts of their theology. This type of presentation can be effective to counter the recruiting phase of the WMSCOG cult. It is very useful for that. As far as helping to get victims out that are deep inside (or are "under the spell") it is not so effective. But it is very useful for blunting the recruiting knife …..
She does nothing to support her claim in her video title that this group is a cult.
@Heinrich – any theologian can blow holes in other theologies. By this definition, Bill Maher "proves" that most/all religions are "cults". The OP video proves nothing as to if a group is cultish or not.
Try viewing it from a lens other than I-really-cant-stand-WMSCOG.
@No handle: She really doesn't have to support that claim to be effective. It is just her opinion, and her opinion could be enough to get people to think about what they are getting into. Truly, if 20 cult experts said this wasn't a cult, I wouldn't be any less concerned about my son being in it. It's about the destructive elements of being involved with this group, not the label.
I don't think her video would help members who are already in this up to their necks. But then again, I haven't found anything that does help those poor people. If I did I would post it here and there would no longer be a purpose for this forum. But I do find that prevention works much better than trying to get people out once they are involved. Inoculation from the deceptive tactics the group uses is the best gift we can give other people.
What is your take on informing people in advance rather than trying to undo the damage? Ideas?
It's about the destructive elements of being involved with this group, not the label.
The lady in the video addressed a grand total of zero destructive elements of being involved with this (or any) group.
My take on informing people in advance is that it should be focused on doctrine only in so far as to identify a group that exhibits destructive behaviors and nothing more. For example, "this group has the practice of cutting off from families and loved ones and you can identify them by these doctrinal beliefs _______, _______, and ______; also, a list of other groups that cut off from familes is X, Y, and Z".
nohandle wrote:
Try viewing it from a lens other than I-really-cant-stand-WMSCOG.
Instead of addressing my point, you obfuscate and redirect the discussion to points I never made. This person's video points help blunt the recruiting knife, and anyone willing to go online and make theological points that blunt the recruiting knife of WMSCOG is doing a great service. What I don't like is your pompous and know-it-all attitude. Are you in the cult? You sound like it.
@No handle: The lady in the video probably couldn't address the destructive elements as well as others possibly because she didn't join and experience those elements directly and/or she doesn't have a loved one in the wmscog. Hard to describe something you haven't experienced. Maybe she hasn't researched them as long as we have. She just knew something was really wrong there and tried to warn others. She did identify the group well, Ahnsahnghong being Jesus, the full name of the group, etc., although not being able to say the name of their female deity. Her experience comes across as honestly trying to help. I'll take that. She can leave the doctrine to you and others who know their doctrine in depth.
I am curious as to how you have used their doctrine to help others. Have you talked to others about the wms? Have you gotten anyone out that way? Honestly, if you have a good way of doing this, share it please. So far, I haven't seen one post on here where a parent has said, "I sat down and discussed the WMSCOG with my loved one and got them out of there." It just doesn't happen even though some of the people I talked to were biblical scholars who addressed the doctrine. I know of interventions that worked and I know of people who quit on their own because they finally saw through the lies. That's why I focus on prevention. It's way more effective.
I'd have to agree with MM and Heinrich on this one.
The important this was making folks aware of the groups existance and recruitment practises. So that people who have never heard of the cult might be aware that they are being deceived and pressured in to accepting a doctrine that they might not have to agreed to had the cult fully disclosed what they are about.
Figure it out for yourselves.
I think we already did. Thanks for commenting though. I mean it. You bring a different perspective, and that is good for discussion.
You may have, MM, but HH sure hasn't.
Heinrich Hochhalter wrote:
Instead of addressing my point, you obfuscate and redirect the discussion to points I never made.
*pot calls kettle black* and by pot, I mean HH.
I made my point first; it is HH that obfuscated and redirected.
Heinrich Hochhalter wrote:
What I'm saying is that the video does next to nothing to support the title she uses.
Not true at all. *redirects to an enemy of my enemy is my friend mindset*
Absolutely is true.
Azula wrote:
…had the cult fully disclosed what they are about.
you mean like cutting off from loved ones
you mean like learning to disassociate from the outside world because it is Satan's realm, and that this serves as information control?
None of which was covered in the video. It was only a debate on doctrine.
Heinrich Hochhalter wrote:
nohandle wrote:
Try viewing it from a lens other than I-really-cant-stand-WMSCOG.
Are you in the cult? You sound like it.
People in cults typically hold obdurately to their opinions. Moreover, they don't usually get on forums to advocate for a learn-to-fish > giving-fish point of view.
More obfuscation and now bloviation from the Handle of No. Hey bud, we're here to help get people out of the cult. Ease up on the Capn Crunch and RedBull.
"People in cults typically hold obdurately to their opinions". Boy, what a great insight by Mr Handle of No. And I'm sure his knowlege of fishing will help a great deal in separating these victims from the groups that control them.
If your religion is wrong and you have it shown to you are you going to stay because although it was proven wrong it wasn’t “proven a cult”
This is where the arguments of, "Who is keeping the feasts and the Passover like the WMSCOG" and "If the WMSCOG is not the true church then which one is? Where should I go if not the WMSCOG?" I'm not sure how to answer your question directly Simon mostly because some people will stay even though they have been shown that the doctrine is wrong. It's hard to fathom but we have all seen it time and time again. BTW, it's nice to see you posting once in a while.
might have been seen this, but i love the actual proof he has on them. Check his youtube
Joshua wrote:
This is where the arguments of, "Who is keeping the feasts and the Passover like the WMSCOG" and "If the WMSCOG is not the true church then which one is? Where should I go if not the WMSCOG?" I'm not sure how to answer your question directly Simon mostly because some people will stay even though they have been shown that the doctrine is wrong. It's hard to fathom but we have all seen it time and time again. BTW, it's nice to see you posting once in a while.
It's been shown but they haven't seen it yet necessarily
that being said nohandle seems to be aknowledging it is adequet at proving doctrine but since it doesn't prove its a cult it is worthless that seems odd to me I was mostly curious why that isn't enough
Simon wrote:
that being said nohandle seems to be aknowledging it is adequet at proving doctrine but since it doesn't prove its a cult it is worthless that seems odd to me I was mostly curious why that isn't enough
Because the title of the video calls them a cult yet addresses nothing but a debate of doctrine. The logic is flawed. Tell me how they are a cult or remove that claim from the title of the video. The problem that exists is that these pseudo-claims grow into a false belief by people unfamiliar with what a cult actually is into something similar to weird beliefs = cult. Millions of people, and possibly billions worldwide, make sense of strange beliefs and, unknowingly, "join" cults or cultish groups; this is not to mention the inability to count people born into these groups. Just because a newbie looks something up on the internet and finds a video titled "My experience with the cult- "Church of God, world mission society" does not mean that the information in it, to whatever degree we want to debate, is the condition which engenders thought that gets the newbie to stop attending. It could very well be that the fact that the newbie was curious is the condition that engenders the exit. To be fair, we don't know; in the absence of a study to verify one way or the other having more weight, I would have to back off on the completely worthless claim. However, these are my reasons for the initial claim of the video being worthless.
also, HH:
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..............................No Handle – why so angry? We can have a discussion without flipping the bird!
As has been posted in hundreds of other posts on this site, it is not the belief that makes a cult; it is the behavior. All religions believe miraculous, may-seem-crazy-to-others doctrine but that does not make them a cult.
Jews believe an invisable man created the world and man and woman (along with alot of other Old Testament stories such as Noah's Ark, Jonah and the whale, etc.
Christians believe the same but have added the Mesiah/Christ to the mix with a man that was born of a virgin, walked on water, rose from the dead, etc.
Amish believe the same, but create their own rules using scripture to justify their dress, non-use of electricity, cars, etc.
Scientology believes in outerspace gods that rule planets and that you can become one if you reach the highest level of the bridge and go "clear."
WMSCOG believes a Korean dead man and a living Korean woman are gods and that their select group will go with them to heaven.
See! All kind of crazy-sounding stuff – but people are free to believe it!
Let's just choose one cult characteristic – Leaving the group behavior:
Jews – Since being a Jew is a heritage as well as a religion, most members come to believe through their parents. Some parents may have a hard time accepting but usually believe in family and stay together and love each other. Love of family takes priority.
Christians – same with alot of prayer for the wayward child/member.
Amish – If the child makes a decision to leave the faith, they are shunned!! This is where the "cult" behavior comes in to play. The parents/members believe their religious doctrine takes priority over the love of their child/member.
Scientology – All members "disconnet" from the non-believer and the non-believer is labeled a (SP) suppressive person. Once again, belief trumps love and years of experience of being associated with this person – thus checking the cult behavior box.
WMSCOG – Not as direct as the Amish and Scientology, but members are encouraged/manipulated into disconnecting from their family by either keeping the members so busy they don't have time to associate or by planting thoughts in the members mind that the family members are evil and will try to draw them away from god. (This leads to another characteristic of phobia implantation.)
Of course there are other behaviors that have to be in play for the group to qualify as a "cult" but the last three (Amish, Scientology and WMSCOG) fit the definition.
So… while it is true that the video does not prove that WMSCOG is a cult (only the woman's opinion) by her using the word "cult" it will cause the viewer to pause and think – because the word "cult" initiates a negative response. So whether you agree with her or not, she had the courage to make a video to bring awareness to (what most of us here consider to be) a negative group. As I said before, it will probably not cause someone to leave, but it may stop someone from joining. If you feel so strongly about WMSCOG being labeled a cult, you are free to make your own video and share your own opinion. Let us know if you do – we can post it for the forum to watch.
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