Experience vs. Published Evidence

  • Creator
    Topic
  • #7370
    genny
    Participant

    I think a distinction should be made between two types of evidences.

    There are those evidences related to experience.  But if it's not actually written and published, it's very hard to prove that its official doctrine.  And we've seen that experiences can vary person to person, region to region.  Examples:

    Whether or not the wmscog preaches to the poor or homeless;

    Whether or not (and when) blacks were preached to;

    How strongly the ten talents movement was preached…

    Even whether or not the end of the world would be 2012 could fall into this category, since it seems pretty hard to track that down in writing.  Without it being published, it's easy for the wmscog to say that anyone preaching a 2012 end date just misunderstood.

    Our wmscog friends have been arguing these types of evidences strongly.  And how far does that go?  Not very, really, since experiences vary and are hard to prove to someone who wasn't there.

    Yes, I'm speaking to you now, FTOS and 144000 and 1004 and any other members reading…

    I believe you are putting all your energies into debating these kind of experience evidences so that you can ignore the evidence that exists in the published documents and doctrine of the wmscog.

    There is enough evidence against the wmscog from their own publications that has nothing to do with experiences.  With published evidence, you cannot say that we heard wrong, or that we misunderstood, or that it was just a fluke happening.  And these are not issues with different Bible interpretations either.

    I'd like to start a list of those evidences here.  It would probably be too much to debate them all in this one thread.  These already have been discussed in previous threads, but we could start new threads as needed.  I'll get the list started:

    — The problem with the 7th month feasts being kept in the 8th month on some years.

    — The historical inaccuracy of the teaching (regarding the Antichrist) of the 10 kingdoms and the year 538.

    — The ineligibility of Zahng, Kim, and the WMSCOG itself to receive Presidential Service Awards as they are shown.

    — The teaching of a God who lies.

    Please add to the list, but also please remember to limit the list to evidence that is published (and therefore no debate about whether or not the wmscog actually teaches it).  Also, let's try to refrain from issues that are of a Bible interpretation nature, unless it's something really clear.

  • #62626

    emil
    Participant

    144000 wrote:

     

    Emil,

    Hmm, try searching keywords "doesn't matter beacuse" or "at least" and similar indications of goalpost shifting, you'll notice most if not all come from you guys, not us.

    Are those phrases always indicative of goalpost shifting? I told you this would get us nowhere. Let us stick to the topics of threads and see where it leads us. Let us stick to facts rather than accusations. When we point out facts, let us provide proper sources where required rather than mere statements.

    #62627

    emil
    Participant

    Sarah2013 wrote:

     

    In saying vague you mean claims without raw evidence. If so, that will entail zillions of members. We go by what we saw. So like I said, if I steal a piece of pizza should I be persecuted and convicted if 150 people claim they saw me do it? 

    Sarah2013 – The problem I face with these guys from the other side on the forum is that they never answer questions or debate logically with pertinent facts. They invariably use diversions. That is why I believe Genny's suggestion will help us debate logically. The debates here often go into matters of opinion and never ending loops about who lied and things like that. I don't really care whether Ron lied or FTOS lied or 144000 lied but I do care if God is a liar.

    It would be good to debate doctrine. I do not mean that personal experience has no place on the forum. It certainly does. But you see how it becomes a series of denials like "Oh Sarah2013 is in a small minority and our church is not really like that"

    The problem with debating on doctrine with the wmscog is that, compared to mainstream churches, they are pretty secretive about it. I believe that gives them plenty of wiggle room as we saw with the "2012 end" issue.

    #62628

    genny
    Participant

    144000 wrote:

    Genny,

    Yes, you did get it wrong, no I'm not going to waste more of my good time arguing about it, you have archives, you can read them. If you still can't find it, too bad.

    Do I understand correctly then that you are happy to waste time arguing back and forth about who lied about their experiences (which you can't prove anyway because you were there), but you do not want to put time into arguing about problems in the actual and recorded teachings of the wmscog?  Seems backwards to me.

    Here are some threads from the archives regarding the 4 points I brought up.  Everyone is welcome to review them and help refine the "answers" that 144000 thinks I have gotten wrong.  Let's see if there is any more we can draw out of the conversations that would make these answers more correct.

    — The problem with the 7th month feasts being kept in the 8th month on some years.

    Answer — Those were on leap years.  Not a valid answer because the leap month is added at the end of the year.  Still awaiting an answer on this one.

    Resource Thread: https://www.examiningthewmscog.com/forum/topic.php?id=4646

    — The historical inaccuracy of the teaching (regarding the Antichrist) of the 10 kingdoms and the year 538.

    Answer — No answer yet for the 10 kingdoms part.  Answer for the year 538–the year had significance for God even if it wasn't the final year for the Ostrogoths.  Not valid because it still ignores the historical inaccuracy.

    Resource Thread: https://www.examiningthewmscog.com/forum/topic.php?id=4642 (but it got a bit bogged down with other discussion about the Catholic Church in the end)

    — The ineligibility of Zahng, Kim, and the WMSCOG itself to receive Presidential Service Awards as they are shown.

    Answer — So what if they weren't really eligible for the award.  The members who applied for the awards on their behalf meant well.  Not a valid answer because it shows ignorance and deceit on the part of the wmscog for touting the awards.

    Resource Threads: https://www.examiningthewmscog.com/forum/topic.php?id=4657 and https://www.examiningthewmscog.com/forum/topic.php?id=5236

     

    — The teaching of a God who lies.

    Answer — There is no problem with God lying.  If God is doing it, then it is right.  Not a valid answer because it ignores that God is truth and Satan is the father of lies.

    Resource Thread: https://www.examiningthewmscog.com/forum/topic.php?id=4656

    #62629

    Emily
    Participant

    144000 wrote:

    Simon,

    Which would be 1.7 million versus 150, to be precise.

    144,000, how does the wms define a "member"?  Are you saying that the wms currently has 1.7 million active members?  What would criteria do you use to determine whether or not a member is active?  Does the wms subtract from the total number when a member leaves?

    #62630

    genny
    Participant

    Good question Emily.  I'd like to know that too.

    #62631

    Sarah2013
    Participant

    emil wrote:

    Sarah2013 wrote:

     

    In saying vague you mean claims without raw evidence. If so, that will entail zillions of members. We go by what we saw. So like I said, if I steal a piece of pizza should I be persecuted and convicted if 150 people claim they saw me do it? 

    Sarah2013 – The problem I face with these guys from the other side on the forum is that they never answer questions or debate logically with pertinent facts. They invariably use diversions. That is why I believe Genny's suggestion will help us debate logically. The debates here often go into matters of opinion and never ending loops about who lied and things like that. I don't really care whether Ron lied or FTOS lied or 144000 lied but I do care if God is a liar.

    It would be good to debate doctrine. I do not mean that personal experience has no place on the forum. It certainly does. But you see how it becomes a series of denials like "Oh Sarah2013 is in a small minority and our church is not really like that"

    The problem with debating on doctrine with the wmscog is that, compared to mainstream churches, they are pretty secretive about it. I believe that gives them plenty of wiggle room as we saw with the "2012 end" issue.

    That's true, I must admit. Makes sense then. 

    #62632

    Emily
    Participant

    genny wrote:

    Good question Emily.  I'd like to know that too.

    I started a new thread to make it easier to follow the discussion 🙂

    #62633

    emil
    Participant

    144000 wrote:

    Simon,

    Which would be 1.7 million versus 150, to be precise.

    What exactly are you trying to prove here? Where did the 150 precise number come from? Was it from Sarah2013's post?

    If so then it shows you have either not understood or are deliberately ignoring what she said. She put a hypothetical  number of 150 people who would witness against her, not for her. Now you explain how it is 1.7 million versus 150 to be precise.

    #62634

    Sarah2013
    Participant

    emil wrote:

    144000 wrote:

    Simon,

    Which would be 1.7 million versus 150, to be precise.

    What vexactly are you trying to prove here? Where did the 150 precise number come from? Was it from sarah2013's post?

    If so then it shows you have either not understood or are deliberately ignoring what she said. She put a hypothetical  number of 150 people who would witness against her, not for her. Now you explain how it is 1.7 million versus 150 to be precise.

    Sometimes the lights are on when in fact nobody is home. 

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