[genny]

There has been a lot of arguing here about whether the day should begin with sunset or with sunrise.  Of all the things to debate, honestly this one seems so minor.

First of all, there is evidence for both sides, even if you don't want to admit it.  (Yes, and I used to be absolutely certain that only one was correct.)  Here's the concise research: http://www.biblicalperspectives.com/books/crucifixion/4.html

Second, from what you know about God, do you really think your salvation hinges on whether or not you get this point right?  That makes Him out to be a tyrant.

This is just an example of what happens when you base your salvation on works instead of by grace through faith.  Once you start basing your salvation on works and obedience, then it becomes a acompetition.  You may tell yourself that you are God-centered because you are following His commands, but really you are self-centered.  "They're not obeying right!  I'm doing it better!"

Then you fall into the trap of never being able to do enough.  Face it.  You will never be able to obey completely.  There will always be another command that you haven't obeyed fully.

Thank God!!! that our salvation is not based on what we do, but the state of our heart.

Ephesians 2:8

For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith —and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—<sup class=”versenum”> not by works, so that no one can boast.

Before anyone has a fit about "You're telling me all I have to do is say I believe in God and then I can live however I want and totally disregard God's laws, and I'll still go to heaven?!  No!" …

We're not talking about that kind of faith. (James 2:14)  We're talking about the kind of faith that shows itself in how you live your life.  (Now I know we differ here in what that life looks like, but that's not the point of this right now.)

True faith is accompanied by good works (Eph. 2:10), but it is not the works that save you, and it's not about how well you obey or how many commandments you keep.  It's your faith that brings the grace that saves you.  What kind of faith?  A faith that is shown in action.

As Martin Luther expressed, "We are saved by faith alone, but not by a faith that is alone."  (I'm probably not exact on that quote, but hope you get the idea.)

This is where Christ's freedom comes in.

Galatians 5:1

It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery.

Slavery is that trap of never being able to do (or be) enough.  You might say, "Keeping the Sabbath is not slavery to me."  Well, I'm glad if it's a joy for you, but if it's something your salvation is based on, then it will become part of your slavery.  It will become part of that continually growing list of what you must obey, and what you will never be able to acheive.

I tried to express this to my sister in the beginning when she told me about the Passover ceremony being required for salvation.  She said, "It's just one day.  It's not hard."

Well, one day of Passover to get your salvation turns into every Saturday at church as well… plus starting your Sabbath at sunrise… plus attending all three services… plus all the feasts… plus wearing a veil… plus tithing… plus giving extra offering… plus dressing the right way… plus preaching… plus bearing fruit… plus being joyful always (no grumbling!)… plus praying at the appointed times… plus dressing the right way… plus … plus … plus …

Don't believe that the wmscog teaches salvation based on obedience?  Just read what they have said themselves: http://encountering-ahnsahnghong.blogspot.com/2012/02/what-wmscog-requires-for-salvation.html

I think this is one of the key problems of the wmscog.  And it preys on people's desire to do something so they can feel that in some way they have earned their salvation.

Faith vs. works has been debated for ages because there are verses in the Bible for both.  People want to believe it is just one or the other.  But the way it is reconciled is that we are saved by faith–the kind of faith that produces good works.

PS–This is not the topic to argue what those 'good works' are.  That's happening in plenty of the other threads.  But if you'd like to chime in on the faith vs. works theme, go right ahead. 🙂

[Simon]

[Simon]

genny wrote:

Faith leads to obedience, but obedience does not necessarily lead to faith.

You can have obedience without faith.  If you've ever known children, you can probably think of a time when you've seen someone who will be obedient in action but rebellious in their heart.  Like the story of the little boy who obeys his mom's order to sit down, but says, "I may be sitting down on the outside, but I'm standing up on the inside."  Adults can do it too.

"obedience" vs obedience  

Faith and Obedience cannot exist seperately but "obedience" can ecist on its own.

 

It's like the famous quote from Christian missionary Amy Carmichael, "One can give without loving, but one cannot love without giving."

(Guess I'm feeling quote-y today 🙂

But let's say you do have the kind of faith that leads to obedience.  What if you don't (or can't) obey everything perfectly.  Will you be saved?

If your faith is real you will obey enough to be saved. God will not judge you based on inability.

[genny]

shimon wrote:

genny wrote:

Faith leads to obedience, but obedience does not necessarily lead to faith.

You can have obedience without faith.  If you've ever known children, you can probably think of a time when you've seen someone who will be obedient in action but rebellious in their heart.  Like the story of the little boy who obeys his mom's order to sit down, but says, "I may be sitting down on the outside, but I'm standing up on the inside."  Adults can do it too.

"obedience" vs obedience  

Faith and Obedience cannot exist seperately but "obedience" can ecist on its own.

You seem to have two meanings of obedience?  How would you define obedience then?

 

It's like the famous quote from Christian missionary Amy Carmichael, "One can give without loving, but one cannot love without giving."

(Guess I'm feeling quote-y today 🙂

But let's say you do have the kind of faith that leads to obedience.  What if you don't (or can't) obey everything perfectly.  Will you be saved?

If your faith is real you will obey enough to be saved. God will not judge you based on inability.

Therefore your salvation is based on your faith, not your obedience.

[genny]

shimon wrote:

genny wrote:

Faith leads to obedience, but obedience does not necessarily lead to faith.

You can have obedience without faith.  If you've ever known children, you can probably think of a time when you've seen someone who will be obedient in action but rebellious in their heart.  Like the story of the little boy who obeys his mom's order to sit down, but says, "I may be sitting down on the outside, but I'm standing up on the inside."  Adults can do it too.

"obedience" vs obedience  

Faith and Obedience cannot exist seperately but "obedience" can ecist on its own.

You seem to have two meanings of obedience?  How would you define obedience then?

 

It's like the famous quote from Christian missionary Amy Carmichael, "One can give without loving, but one cannot love without giving."

(Guess I'm feeling quote-y today 🙂

But let's say you do have the kind of faith that leads to obedience.  What if you don't (or can't) obey everything perfectly.  Will you be saved?

If your faith is real you will obey enough to be saved. God will not judge you based on inability.

Therefore your salvation is based on your faith, not your obedience.

[Simon]

genny wrote:

shimon wrote:

genny wrote:

Faith leads to obedience, but obedience does not necessarily lead to faith.

You can have obedience without faith.  If you've ever known children, you can probably think of a time when you've seen someone who will be obedient in action but rebellious in their heart.  Like the story of the little boy who obeys his mom's order to sit down, but says, "I may be sitting down on the outside, but I'm standing up on the inside."  Adults can do it too.

"obedience" vs obedience  

Faith and Obedience cannot exist seperately but "obedience" can ecist on its own.

You seem to have two meanings of obedience?  How would you define obedience then?

I only have one meaning. "obedeince" is the little boy example. That is NOT truly obedient.

 

It's like the famous quote from Christian missionary Amy Carmichael, "One can give without loving, but one cannot love without giving."

(Guess I'm feeling quote-y today 🙂

But let's say you do have the kind of faith that leads to obedience.  What if you don't (or can't) obey everything perfectly.  Will you be saved?

If your faith is real you will obey enough to be saved. God will not judge you based on inability.

Therefore your salvation is based on your faith, not your obedience.

Yes but if you choose to not be obedient you do not have faith.

[Simon]

genny wrote:

shimon wrote:

genny wrote:

Faith leads to obedience, but obedience does not necessarily lead to faith.

You can have obedience without faith.  If you've ever known children, you can probably think of a time when you've seen someone who will be obedient in action but rebellious in their heart.  Like the story of the little boy who obeys his mom's order to sit down, but says, "I may be sitting down on the outside, but I'm standing up on the inside."  Adults can do it too.

"obedience" vs obedience  

Faith and Obedience cannot exist seperately but "obedience" can ecist on its own.

You seem to have two meanings of obedience?  How would you define obedience then?

I only have one meaning. "obedeince" is the little boy example. That is NOT truly obedient.

 

It's like the famous quote from Christian missionary Amy Carmichael, "One can give without loving, but one cannot love without giving."

(Guess I'm feeling quote-y today 🙂

But let's say you do have the kind of faith that leads to obedience.  What if you don't (or can't) obey everything perfectly.  Will you be saved?

If your faith is real you will obey enough to be saved. God will not judge you based on inability.

Therefore your salvation is based on your faith, not your obedience.

Yes but if you choose to not be obedient you do not have faith.

[Love'n Honey]

I believe in obedience through action & obedience of the heart. I can agree with shimon. The little boy was obedient but didn't show true obedience. To be honest, I believe in God because I'm afraid of what may happen if I didn't. I keep the Sabbath, PO, etc. because I'm afraid of what will happen if I didn't. So, am I obedient or "obedient"?

[Love'n Honey]

I believe in obedience through action & obedience of the heart. I can agree with shimon. The little boy was obedient but didn't show true obedience. To be honest, I believe in God because I'm afraid of what may happen if I didn't. I keep the Sabbath, PO, etc. because I'm afraid of what will happen if I didn't. So, am I obedient or "obedient"?

[genny]

So, just to make sure we are on the same page, we will make some definitions…

faith = true faith that produces obedience, or good works, sincere

"faith" = dead faith, just words but no action, insincere

obedience = obeying from the heart, because you want to

"obedience" = obeying in action, but not from a loving heart, you don't really want to

If we agree on these definitions, then we can move on with the discussion.  Ok?

The next question would be…

Does a person always have to obey perfectly to be obedient?  What if they wish to be obedient, but fail (however often, for whatever reason), is that obedience still or "obedience"?

[genny]

So, just to make sure we are on the same page, we will make some definitions…

faith = true faith that produces obedience, or good works, sincere

"faith" = dead faith, just words but no action, insincere

obedience = obeying from the heart, because you want to

"obedience" = obeying in action, but not from a loving heart, you don't really want to

If we agree on these definitions, then we can move on with the discussion.  Ok?

The next question would be…

Does a person always have to obey perfectly to be obedient?  What if they wish to be obedient, but fail (however often, for whatever reason), is that obedience still or "obedience"?

[Sueno Maruyama]

God is all.  Quarks to Universe.  And Beyond.  Don't try to understand God.  You can't.  Live your life, in a good way.  Love your friends and neighbors.  It is ok to have people you don't like.  Just try not to hurt them.  Jesus, Buddha, St Thomas Aquinas, St Augustine, Mother Teresa, and other saintly human beings have shown us AND lived lives to demonstrate what is important and what isn't.

Don't waste time trying to "understand" God.  It is impossible, in my opinion.  At death, you may discover what you don't know now.  So don't worry about it now.  Live a good life and love the people around you.  

[Sueno Maruyama]

God is all.  Quarks to Universe.  And Beyond.  Don't try to understand God.  You can't.  Live your life, in a good way.  Love your friends and neighbors.  It is ok to have people you don't like.  Just try not to hurt them.  Jesus, Buddha, St Thomas Aquinas, St Augustine, Mother Teresa, and other saintly human beings have shown us AND lived lives to demonstrate what is important and what isn't.

Don't waste time trying to "understand" God.  It is impossible, in my opinion.  At death, you may discover what you don't know now.  So don't worry about it now.  Live a good life and love the people around you.  

[Simon]

yes I would agree with your definition

to answer your question I would say that is where we get to the definition of unintentional sin

[Simon]

yes I would agree with your definition

to answer your question I would say that is where we get to the definition of unintentional sin

[Love'n Honey]

I think technically, failing to obey completely is "obedience"with faith. =)

[Love'n Honey]

I think technically, failing to obey completely is "obedience"with faith. =)

[Simon]

nope "obedience" is willfully not obedience where as failure is incompetence.

[Simon]

nope "obedience" is willfully not obedience where as failure is incompetence.

[genny]

Now think about this:

Faith leads to obedience, that we know for sure.

Does obedience lead to faith?

On a separate, but related note,

How about David's sin with Bathsheba?  Or Peter's sin of denying Jesus?  How would you categorize those, according to what we've been talking about here?

[Simon]

Paul did say the law was given to lead us to Christ so to an extent

Those would be unintentional they were rash emotional responses not cognitive planned rebellion

[genny]

shimon wrote:

Paul did say the law was given to lead us to Christ so to an extent

Paul said that the law makes us conscious of our sin (Rom. 3:20).  But from the context of the book of Romans, it is because we can't keep the law that we realize we need Christ.  Not that keeping the law leads us to Christ.

Now, when you obey God, you may find a boost in the faith you already have.  There are people from just about every religion (and aetheists) who love their neighbors (and show it well), but that hasn't lead them to faith in Christ.  But if you were going to try to obey every, single command of God, you would need to have faith first, right?  Otherwise, you wouldn't be interested in some of those commands.

So faith definitely leads to obedience, but obedience does not necessarily lead to faith.

Can we agree on that?

Those would be unintentional they were rash emotional responses not cognitive planned rebellion

I think you've forgotten the story of David and Bathsheba.  That was calculated.  From David's sending messagers to get her, to having her husband killed to cover up the pregnancy.  I think we need to get those definitions of "unintentional" and "intentional."