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There has been a lot of arguing here about whether the day should begin with sunset or with sunrise. Of all the things to debate, honestly this one seems so minor.
First of all, there is evidence for both sides, even if you don't want to admit it. (Yes, and I used to be absolutely certain that only one was correct.) Here's the concise research: http://www.biblicalperspectives.com/books/crucifixion/4.html
Second, from what you know about God, do you really think your salvation hinges on whether or not you get this point right? That makes Him out to be a tyrant.
This is just an example of what happens when you base your salvation on works instead of by grace through faith. Once you start basing your salvation on works and obedience, then it becomes a acompetition. You may tell yourself that you are God-centered because you are following His commands, but really you are self-centered. "They're not obeying right! I'm doing it better!"
Then you fall into the trap of never being able to do enough. Face it. You will never be able to obey completely. There will always be another command that you haven't obeyed fully.
Thank God!!! that our salvation is not based on what we do, but the state of our heart.
Ephesians 2:8
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith —and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—<sup class=”versenum”> not by works, so that no one can boast.
Before anyone has a fit about "You're telling me all I have to do is say I believe in God and then I can live however I want and totally disregard God's laws, and I'll still go to heaven?! No!" …
We're not talking about that kind of faith. (James 2:14) We're talking about the kind of faith that shows itself in how you live your life. (Now I know we differ here in what that life looks like, but that's not the point of this right now.)
True faith is accompanied by good works (Eph. 2:10), but it is not the works that save you, and it's not about how well you obey or how many commandments you keep. It's your faith that brings the grace that saves you. What kind of faith? A faith that is shown in action.
As Martin Luther expressed, "We are saved by faith alone, but not by a faith that is alone." (I'm probably not exact on that quote, but hope you get the idea.)
This is where Christ's freedom comes in.
Galatians 5:1
It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery.
Slavery is that trap of never being able to do (or be) enough. You might say, "Keeping the Sabbath is not slavery to me." Well, I'm glad if it's a joy for you, but if it's something your salvation is based on, then it will become part of your slavery. It will become part of that continually growing list of what you must obey, and what you will never be able to acheive.
I tried to express this to my sister in the beginning when she told me about the Passover ceremony being required for salvation. She said, "It's just one day. It's not hard."
Well, one day of Passover to get your salvation turns into every Saturday at church as well… plus starting your Sabbath at sunrise… plus attending all three services… plus all the feasts… plus wearing a veil… plus tithing… plus giving extra offering… plus dressing the right way… plus preaching… plus bearing fruit… plus being joyful always (no grumbling!)… plus praying at the appointed times… plus dressing the right way… plus … plus … plus …
Don't believe that the wmscog teaches salvation based on obedience? Just read what they have said themselves: http://encountering-ahnsahnghong.blogspot.com/2012/02/what-wmscog-requires-for-salvation.html
I think this is one of the key problems of the wmscog. And it preys on people's desire to do something so they can feel that in some way they have earned their salvation.
Faith vs. works has been debated for ages because there are verses in the Bible for both. People want to believe it is just one or the other. But the way it is reconciled is that we are saved by faith–the kind of faith that produces good works.
PS–This is not the topic to argue what those 'good works' are. That's happening in plenty of the other threads. But if you'd like to chime in on the faith vs. works theme, go right ahead. ๐
I have to say every arguement for sunset theory is a bad one. I only talk about it though because others bring it up.
As for verses like:
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith —and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God
It is talking about how God has called us because we have faith not because of what we do, not that what we do from here on out is irrelevent.
I have to say every arguement for sunset theory is a bad one. I only talk about it though because others bring it up.
As for verses like:
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith —and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God
It is talking about how God has called us because we have faith not because of what we do, not that what we do from here on out is irrelevent.
genny wrote:
shimon wrote:
I have to say every arguement for sunset theory is a bad one. I only talk about it though because others bring it up.
Sunset theory has a stronger case than sunrise theory, in my view. But think about this…
Say there are two people who sincerely love God, and have similar ways of expressing it in their lives, earnestly desiring to obey God. Let's even say they keep all feast days and Sabbaths, and all that stuff. The only difference is that one is convinced that a sunset day is God's command, and the other is convinced that the Bible only teaches that a sunrise day is correct. They each have scriptures and reasons.
Do you think God will accept one and turn the other away?
Sunset theory really has no case. Per your question it would depend on the reasoning and the knowledge God expects of them based on spiritual age.
As for verses like:
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith —and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God
It is talking about how God has called us because we have faith not because of what we do, not that what we do from here on out is irrelevent.
I didn't say that what you do 'from here on out is irrelevant'. It is most certainly relevant. If you say you have faith and love God and believe in Jesus, and have absolutely nothing else in your life to show for it, is that the kind of faith that will save you? (James 2:14) No, that is an empty faith, just words with no substance.
A true, saving faith is evidenced by actions. But it's not the actions that save, it is the faith. The actions are the by-product of the faith.
If you do not have obedience you do not have evidence
genny wrote:
shimon wrote:
I have to say every arguement for sunset theory is a bad one. I only talk about it though because others bring it up.
Sunset theory has a stronger case than sunrise theory, in my view. But think about this…
Say there are two people who sincerely love God, and have similar ways of expressing it in their lives, earnestly desiring to obey God. Let's even say they keep all feast days and Sabbaths, and all that stuff. The only difference is that one is convinced that a sunset day is God's command, and the other is convinced that the Bible only teaches that a sunrise day is correct. They each have scriptures and reasons.
Do you think God will accept one and turn the other away?
Sunset theory really has no case. Per your question it would depend on the reasoning and the knowledge God expects of them based on spiritual age.
As for verses like:
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith —and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God
It is talking about how God has called us because we have faith not because of what we do, not that what we do from here on out is irrelevent.
I didn't say that what you do 'from here on out is irrelevant'. It is most certainly relevant. If you say you have faith and love God and believe in Jesus, and have absolutely nothing else in your life to show for it, is that the kind of faith that will save you? (James 2:14) No, that is an empty faith, just words with no substance.
A true, saving faith is evidenced by actions. But it's not the actions that save, it is the faith. The actions are the by-product of the faith.
If you do not have obedience you do not have evidence
genny wrote:
shimon wrote:
genny wrote:
Sunset theory has a stronger case than sunrise theory, in my view. But think about this…
Say there are two people who sincerely love God, and have similar ways of expressing it in their lives, earnestly desiring to obey God. Let's even say they keep all feast days and Sabbaths, and all that stuff. The only difference is that one is convinced that a sunset day is God's command, and the other is convinced that the Bible only teaches that a sunrise day is correct. They each have scriptures and reasons.
Do you think God will accept one and turn the other away?
Sunset theory really has no case. Per your question it would depend on the reasoning and the knowledge God expects of them based on spiritual age.
So your salvation is not based on what you do, but on your intentions?
I would say there is not much seperation when you account action with revelation shows intentions
I didn't say that what you do 'from here on out is irrelevant'. It is most certainly relevant. If you say you have faith and love God and believe in Jesus, and have absolutely nothing else in your life to show for it, is that the kind of faith that will save you? (James 2:14) No, that is an empty faith, just words with no substance.
A true, saving faith is evidenced by actions. But it's not the actions that save, it is the faith. The actions are the by-product of the faith.
If you do not have obedience you do not have evidence
If you would rather use that word, then …
A true saving faith is evidenced by obedience. But it's not the obedience that saves, it is the faith. The obedience is the by-product of the faith.
If someone has obedience (or good works) without faith, with their obedience (or good works) save them?
Nope
genny wrote:
shimon wrote:
genny wrote:
Sunset theory has a stronger case than sunrise theory, in my view. But think about this…
Say there are two people who sincerely love God, and have similar ways of expressing it in their lives, earnestly desiring to obey God. Let's even say they keep all feast days and Sabbaths, and all that stuff. The only difference is that one is convinced that a sunset day is God's command, and the other is convinced that the Bible only teaches that a sunrise day is correct. They each have scriptures and reasons.
Do you think God will accept one and turn the other away?
Sunset theory really has no case. Per your question it would depend on the reasoning and the knowledge God expects of them based on spiritual age.
So your salvation is not based on what you do, but on your intentions?
I would say there is not much seperation when you account action with revelation shows intentions
I didn't say that what you do 'from here on out is irrelevant'. It is most certainly relevant. If you say you have faith and love God and believe in Jesus, and have absolutely nothing else in your life to show for it, is that the kind of faith that will save you? (James 2:14) No, that is an empty faith, just words with no substance.
A true, saving faith is evidenced by actions. But it's not the actions that save, it is the faith. The actions are the by-product of the faith.
If you do not have obedience you do not have evidence
If you would rather use that word, then …
A true saving faith is evidenced by obedience. But it's not the obedience that saves, it is the faith. The obedience is the by-product of the faith.
If someone has obedience (or good works) without faith, with their obedience (or good works) save them?
Nope
No
No
True obedience includes faith and true.faith leads to obedience.
You can’t have one with out the other
True obedience includes faith and true.faith leads to obedience.
You can’t have one with out the other
genny wrote:
Faith leads to obedience, but obedience does not necessarily lead to faith.
You can have obedience without faith. If you've ever known children, you can probably think of a time when you've seen someone who will be obedient in action but rebellious in their heart. Like the story of the little boy who obeys his mom's order to sit down, but says, "I may be sitting down on the outside, but I'm standing up on the inside." Adults can do it too.
"obedience" vs obedience
Faith and Obedience cannot exist seperately but "obedience" can ecist on its own.
It's like the famous quote from Christian missionary Amy Carmichael, "One can give without loving, but one cannot love without giving."
(Guess I'm feeling quote-y today ๐
But let's say you do have the kind of faith that leads to obedience. What if you don't (or can't) obey everything perfectly. Will you be saved?
If your faith is real you will obey enough to be saved. God will not judge you based on inability.
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