- Topic
I've been reading this link:http://ahnsahnghongandgodthemother.blogspot.com/ (thanks, Elievalkyrie)
And something stuck me … It was from this part here:
The Passover of the year 1984, one year before Father Ahnsahnghong ascended to heaven, was very special.
For a long time, Father had celebrated the Passover in Busan. In 1984, however, He said that He would keep the Passover in Seoul where Mother was residing.
He told His disciples to rent a wedding hall to hold the Passover assembly and to light two candles, (a blue one and a red one, which are used in a wedding ceremony in Korea.)
I wondered what meaning the candles have in a Korean wedding ceremony–a red candle and a blue candle–so I've been looking it up…
Red and blue are traditional colors for the Korea wedding ceremony because they symbolize yin and yang. You will notice it on the Korean flag–the Taegeuk in red and blue.
You may think yin and yang is just a symbol of harmony, but it's associated with Taoism. And Taoism can be considered pagan. We know the hatred the WMSCOG has of all things associated with paganism (or that they assume originated in paganism). So how do you think they would react to this…..
The WMSCOG claims to worship God(s) but they are actually pagan in disguise. When Ahn announced the existence of the "Bride" with the traditional red and blue candles of a Korean wedding, he was really paying homage to Taoism, which we know is pagan. The red and blue represent yin and yang, a fundmental concept of Taoism.
Not only that, but pagans use candles to worship their false gods. And witches use candles to cast spells, color-coded candles to give their spells extra power. So how can Ahnsahnghong use candles in the Passover assembly unless he also has a hidden pagan agenda.
Candles are associated with sun worship too! The light of a candle is bright and hot, just like the sun. And its glow radiates out as a circle, the symbol of sun-worshippers!
They can hide it from us no longer. Despite their pretense of following God's commands, the WMSCOG secretly practices paganism.
Ok, what do you think. ๐ They would say it's ridiculous, right? But that's what they do with Christianity.
genny wrote:
My purpose was to show that similarity does not mean connection.
This article has a bunch of good examples: http://www.ralphwoodrow.org/books/pages/babylon-mystery.html
Simon wrote:
Well the cross historically was a pagan idol that is not disputable.
Yes, crosses have been used by many cultures, but that doesn't mean Christians chose it to copy paganism. The early Christians chose it because Jesus was crucified on a cross.
yes but you cannot prove it from scripture, not that everything needs to be but to make a comparisson you need to live by the same rules.
And Easter is a pagan deity and her pagan Sabbat is also based on the Vernal Equinox which is a Solar calendar where as the modeim from which Jesus's crucifixion and ressurection are based is Lunar
There is almost no information about the pagan deity "Ostara". Where does the information about her "Sabbat" come from? Do we have a source for that?
My friend keeps Ostara and all the other Sabbats and Esbats
Also the Easter Bunny is directly from a myth about Ostara.
Does anyone say the Easter Bunny is Christian?
It is now a Christian tradition
Therefore the only scriptural presidence would be the Sunday after Passover (which it is usually but more than occasionally is not).
It usually coincides properly with Passover, but on the occasions when it does not, the question becomes which calendar is in the wrong. And does it really matter?
Well God declared the lunar month as correct. And the first month by a stage of Barley so you could easily find the correct date (chances are both the Rabbincal Calendar and the Gregorian will be wrong at times)
Does it matter? That's the bigger question, If we want to use their solascriptura almost soloscriptura arguments against them it does, if we are talking salvation not at all.
Candles in worship on the other hand are even commanded in some ways.
I'm not saying that there is a problem with candles, but I think it's an obvious example that similarity does not always mean connection.
(the blue and red part I would agree on to an extent although I don't know with certainty that that is the origin or not although there is definite probability.)
You could look it up, but there were many sources, and it looked pretty clear. Again, it might be an example of similarity vs. connection again, but that would just prove the point.
I know there are the five cardinal colours of Korea and I know there is Yin and Yang in the colours but there is no record I can find that says it applies to the wedding candles definitively although I am highly inclined to believe it is.
and again for the record this isn't saying don't do easter or have crosses (of course don't worship them WMSCOG is right about that its just few do making them wrong) just about using their logic against them.
genny wrote:
Simon wrote:
Yes, crosses have been used by many cultures, but that doesn't mean Christians chose it to copy paganism. The early Christians chose it because Jesus was crucified on a cross.
yes but you cannot prove it from scripture, not that everything needs to be but to make a comparisson you need to live by the same rules.
Do you mean that we cannot prove from scripture that Jesus died on a cross?
No we cannot prove they used physical representations of it in the early church, not sure we can historically prove it that far back or not.
And Easter is a pagan deity and her pagan Sabbat is also based on the Vernal Equinox which is a Solar calendar where as the modeim from which Jesus's crucifixion and ressurection are based is Lunar
There is almost no information about the pagan deity "Ostara". Where does the information about her "Sabbat" come from? Do we have a source for that?
My friend keeps Ostara and all the other Sabbats and Esbats
So what is their source for these dates? I'm curious about that, because as far as I've seen there are only two early sources about Ostara. I thought this was a good summary: http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/2011/04/19/name-easter-pagan
Hmmm. Maybe we need a thread to talk about Easter and Passover…
I'd have to ask her, not talked to her in a while. The problem is Easter as any other origin seems to be a way to copt out more than anything. The Two Babylons is definitely dubious but that doesn't make the connection between Easter and Easter go away.
Also the Easter Bunny is directly from a myth about Ostara.
Does anyone say the Easter Bunny is Christian?
It is now a Christian tradition
Not in my circles. It's a secular tradition.
Maybe in your experience. Their logic would still apply to it is still following a tradition from the "pagans" (but I realized another pagan tradition WMSCOG does just now… New Years was established by Rome3/4 months before the New Year of the Bible)
and again for the record this isn't saying don't do easter or have crosses (of course don't worship them WMSCOG is right about that its just few do making them wrong) just about using their logic against them.
I agree. and I do want to make sure to use their logic against them in a …logical way. ๐
dislogic logic?
We are talking about the WMSCOG Hal does it need to?
Simon wrote:
We are talking about the WMSCOG Hal does it need to?
LOL for that.
For Christians, Sola Scriptura is —let's just say, the safest route in terms of following God. For the people that follow solely the Bible, no people would condemn them because they follow what we consider the Word of God. But we can condemn people that does not practice Sola Scriptura just for the main fact that their religious practices are not bible base and can never be proven to be "biblical".
It's like making a thesis, you must always have trusted references that can support your claim to use as basis for your presentation. These "basis" is used to help you write a thesis which is purely based on authentic research. Every Christians believe the bible to be authentic. The fact also is that the use of "cross" as symbol of worship was NOT used in the bible, not even in the New Testament.
The disciples of Christ (those who were personally appointed by Him) did NOT use crosses to symbolize Christ after His death so that is why it receives many criticism. Pagans always use material things to worship and it is said that the 2nd commandment "Thou shall not make ANY graven image" was made to differentiate the pagans from the Israelites. They were not allowed to make any representation of God. Even Jesus face was not recorded in history, no one knows His true face until now. So using the "cross" is deliberately disobeying the 2nd commandment of God.
just when sola gets change to solo we get problems
Hmm… I am not really sure of the difference, can you explain it further? lol. But whatever teachings that cannot be proven biblically are condemned by sola scriptura believers. Though they also makes allowances if there is a new "revelation" that God would give but it must first be scrutinized and proven beyond doubt that it is from God. There are rules for that before accepting new books or teachings into the bible.
For Christians the cross is not worshipped, it is a reminder.
1Corinthians 1:17-18. “For Christ did not send me to baptize but to proclaim the gospel, and not with eloquent wisdom, so that the cross of Christ might not be emptied of its power. For the message about the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.”
You should say for SOME Christians.
For Christians the cross is not worshipped, it is a reminder. Tell that to St. Thomas Aquinas who stated this, "religious worship is paid to the images of Christ". He even stated that the cross must be worship with the same adoration given to Christ via adoration "latria" (which I believe is supposed to be reserve for God). Here is even one prayer from him.
The Cross is my sure salvation.
The Cross it is that I worship evermore.
The Cross of our Lord is with me.
The Cross is my refuge.
Since the "Cross" of Christ in the bible (If you read in context) pertains to Jesus' sacrifice, not the MATERIAL thing. This would mean in your saint's prayer that he was actually worshipping the cross itself because you could not say Aquinas was stating "Jesus' sacrifice" I worship evermore' as it wouldn't be grammatically correct.
Rahab wrote:
1Corinthians 1:17-18. "For Christ did not send me to baptize but to proclaim the gospel, and not with eloquent wisdom, so that the cross of Christ might not be emptied of its power. For the message about the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God."
This passage of the Bible is clearly and greatly misused. The cross may represent Jesus but you cannot use this verse as a biblical support because it does not imply the use of the literal cross but it clearly means the message of Jesus death ON the cross which save the sinners. Please read the word carefully "The message of the cross…" What is the message of the cross? It means salvation to those who believe in Christ and that He died for our sins. Did this passage says we can bow down to a cross? No. Did any other passage in the bible states that we can consider the cross as a "representation" of Christ? No. What does the bible say? You shall not worship or bow down to any graven image. So you say you don't worship? Good for you. Then DON'T bow down or pray to the cross then that would be BETTER. lol.
Soloscriptura means the Bible is all you can look it
Solascriptura means the Bible is the highest authority (other than God of course)
An example of how interpretation would be different not a wonderful example but the best I can think of
Matthew 15:1 Then some Pharisees and teachers of the law came to Jesus from Jerusalem and asked, 2 “Why do your disciples break the tradition of the elders? They don’t wash their hands before they eat!”
3 Jesus replied, “And why do you break the command of God for the sake of your tradition?
Soloscriptura: The pharisees wanted to know why Jesus and his disciples didn't clean their dirty hands before eating because that is just gross.
Solascriptura: will also take into account context of the time Pharisees had a tradition called washing of the hands because they thought that if the hands didn't go through a mikvah they would be ceremonially unclean and if they did not mikvah their hands they would taint their food and become unclean for eating so they saw Jesus and his disciples as violating a ceremonial law that they made up.
Elievalkyrie, please look at the post, "Keeping the Cross in Sight." Let me know what you think. Thank you.
Yes, I meant to use that particular scripture, because it had the word “message” in it. It also says that it is the power of God. I prefer not to elaborate on scripture, because God’s Word speaks to us differently. I was not misusing it as a means to say it is alright to worship the cross.
I do not bow down to the cross or pray to the cross, but I would gladly humble myself in it’s shadow and pray to The Lord who gave His life for all, to God my creator from whom all things flow and to the Holy Spirit who guides me.
Early Christians also used an Ichthus as a symbol that they were Christians. They would put it on buildings, including their homes. If they worshipped in their homes would it be considered idolatry? I wear a wedding ring to remind me of God’s perfect love and of the union which He sanctified between my husband and me. It also reminds me of the relationship of Jesus Christ to the church. Should I take it off before I pray?
Tis current thread of discussion brings to my mind the scripture (and I am paraphrasing here, not quoting directly because I haven’t found it yet) that says something like-do not make unclean what God has made clean; nothing is unclean except what can come from our hearts and mouths.
No elaboration- just saying what is on my heart at this time.
Elievalkyrie, your passion for God’s Word is very strong. You coming out of this group is a blessing. God is glorified through you.
Simon wrote:
Soloscriptura: The pharisees wanted to know why Jesus and his disciples didn't clean their dirty hands before eating because that is just gross.
LOL. Yes, I understand your point. Well, I do not follow the solo scriptura view but whatever I read about religious views, I always compare to the bible's teachings. If the views contradicts the bible then I do not follow it.
Oh, so the washing of hands ceremony was just made up by the Pharisees? I didn't know that, thanks for the info. lol. So that would make it plain tradition and not scripturally supported?
Rahab wrote:
Yes, I meant to use that particular scripture, because it had the word "message" in it. It also says that it is the power of God. I prefer not to elaborate on scripture, because God's Word speaks to us differently. I was not misusing it as a means to say it is alright to worship the cross.
I do not bow down to the cross or pray to the cross, but I would gladly humble myself in it's shadow and pray to The Lord who gave His life for all, to God my creator from whom all things flow and to the Holy Spirit who guides me.
Early Christians also used an Ichthus as a symbol that they were Christians. They would put it on buildings, including their homes. If they worshipped in their homes would it be considered idolatry? I wear a wedding ring to remind me of God's perfect love and of the union which He sanctified between my husband and me. It also reminds me of the relationship of Jesus Christ to the church. Should I take it off before I pray?
Tis current thread of discussion brings to my mind the scripture (and I am paraphrasing here, not quoting directly because I haven't found it yet) that says something like-do not make unclean what God has made clean; nothing is unclean except what can come from our hearts and mouths.
No elaboration- just saying what is on my heart at this time.
Elievalkyrie, your passion for God's Word is very strong. You coming out of this group is a blessing. God is glorified through you.
Thank you Rahab. I do hope that people glorifies God through me and I am very willing to be used by God according to His purpose, no matter what it would be. A person's view of the cross would really just depend on what religion he grows up with. For example, most Roman Catholics bow downs and prays to the cross, even to the pictures of dead popes. lol. I grew up also practicing this. But I guess He has other plans for me because my views suddenly change. I was full of questions that my religion cannot answer. But I was made to see that the Bible have all the answers to my questions, I just have to read it. lol. Well now, I do not view the cross as evil or from the devil but I do not pray to it or any other image either. Since God is spirit, we must also pray in spirit and it truth. So I prefer to pray like Daniel (the one that got thrown into a den of lions). lol.
"Tis current thread of discussion brings to my mind the scripture (and I am paraphrasing here, not quoting directly because I haven't found it yet) that says something like-do not make unclean what God has made clean; nothing is unclean except what can come from our hearts and mouths."
Do you mean Acts 10:15? In that Scripture, they were talking abot food as you know there are people that consider certain foods unclean and does not eat it. But God points out that it is not the food that makes a person unclean but what he thinks, what is in his heart and what he does is what make him unclean.
Joshua wrote:
Elievalkyrie, please look at the post, "Keeping the Cross in Sight." Let me know what you think. Thank you.
LOL. I have just read parts of it. Such a long debate.
This is what I think: I have no problems with the cross. I see crosses everyday and I only pass it by. Some may try to touch it and give a little prayer whenever they see a cross. But I do not do that (anymore) and I think that God would certainly not be angry with me if I don't use the cross in any religious way. I also do not see the cross itself as something that has "inner" power. Everyday that I live is already a reminder that Jesus died for me. I don't need a material reminder for it. If someone wants a physical evidence or reminder of Jesus' sacrifice, that is their right. But seeing people kneel down to crosses and or go to religious "processions" and go around the streets carrying statues tends to make me think that what they do is kinda extreme for a mere "reminder".
Here's one biblical support against the use of "images" or statues.
(Deuteronomy 4:15) You saw no form of any kind the day the Lord spoke to you at Horeb out of the fire. Therefore watch yourselves very carefully,so that you do not become corrupt and make for yourselves an idol, an image of any shape, whether formed like a man or a woman,or like any animal on earth or any bird that flies in the air, or like any creature that moves along the ground or any fish in the waters below.
This is for the bowing down to things made by human hands. I think the cross can be put in these category.
(Isaiah 46:7) They lift it to their shoulders and carry it; they set it up in its place, and there it stands. From that spot it cannot move. Though one cries out to it, it does not answer; it cannot save him from his troubles.
This is for the religious processions.
yes pure tradition (this is why you need to go beyond scripture to understand yet hold scripture as the highest and final authority other than God himself
I've read that Jews keeps the papers or anything that contains the name of God safe at all cost. Is this also pure tradition or scripturally supported?
Jews have laws regarding that which has God’s name on it but Torah and the scriptures do not
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