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In another thread, fromtheotherside, speaking of the materials presented againt the wmscog, said "none of your evidences speak for itself. if you have such evidence present it without your explanation."
I presented several 'evidences without explanation' there, but I think it would be a good idea to take each one separately into its own thread. Here's the first one:
Regarding the teaching of the Catholic Church being the Antichrist: the Ostrogoths were not destroyed in 538, the '10 kingdoms' from the Roman empire were not as the WMSCOG presents, 5 were destroyed not 3, and the destruction or survival of these 'kingdoms' did not depend on their following the Catholic Church. These are historical, textbook facts.
I originally did not link to my research about it, because fromtheotherside did not want explanation, but if you'd like to see the research, I've collected it here:
http://encountering-ahnsahnghong.blogspot.com/2011/11/daniels-prophecy.html
http://encountering-ahnsahnghong.blogspot.com/2011/08/is-666-pope-part-3.html
fromtheotherside tried to answer this point but so far was unsuccessful. I'll copy those pieces of the conversation here from the other thread, just to keep everything together.
Sure we can. Tried to send you a PM but failed.
Ok let me try sending
I didn’t know that Jesus was the founder of CC – sincerely.
Jesus did not create religions, man did. Jesus only spoke of One Father and the kingdom of heaven. This is why I don't like religion, it's like politics, everyone wants to be right, (by mans word) but we need to concentrate on what Jesus said and not man.
1 John 4:4
Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.
There is only ONE GOD so why so many different religions, because everyone wants to put things their way, and not GOD'S way. Wake up people forget about what you were taught and search and study the scriptures yourself, and depend on GOD for the understanding and wisdom, not man. GOD BLESS!
KF wrote:
Jesus did not create religions, man did. Jesus only spoke of One Father and the kingdom of heaven. This why I don't like religion, it's like politics, everyone wants to be right, (by mans word) but we need to concentrate on what Jesus said and not man.
1 John 4:4
Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.
"Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world." James 1:27
Jesus <3 Religion.
I find it hard to seperate religion from Jesus. So, if Catholocism was 1st [not necessarily the way Catholics worship today] then technically Christianity is the daughter of the CC. And by what the WMSCOG teaches, all Christians are doomed to burn.
IrenaeusFTW wrote:
KF wrote:
Jesus did not create religions, man did. Jesus only spoke of One Father and the kingdom of heaven. This why I don't like religion, it's like politics, everyone wants to be right, (by mans word) but we need to concentrate on what Jesus said and not man.
1 John 4:4
Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.
"Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world." James 1:27
Jesus <3 Religion.
Yes notice* I said God did not create Religion(s) man did. There is only one GOD, therefore there should be only one way.
renita.payno wrote:
I find it hard to seperate religion from Jesus. So, if Catholocism was 1st [not necessarily the way Catholics worship today] then technically Christianity is the daughter of the CC. And by what the WMSCOG teaches, all Christians are doomed to burn.
Catholic is Christian. For 1,500 years nobody distinguished bewteen the two.
"Christian is my name, Catholic is my surname." -Saint Pacian of Barcelona, Letter to Sympronian, AD 375.
Actually, the way Catholics worship today isn't that different from what first century Christians did.
KF wrote:
Yes notice* I said God did not create Religion(s) man did. There is only one GOD, therefore there should be only one way.
I agree.
“There is one God and one Christ, and one Church, and one chair founded on Peter by the word of the Lord. It is not possible to set up another altar or for there to be another priesthood besides that one altar and that one priesthood. Whoever has gathered elsewhere is scattering.”
-Saint Cyprian of Carthage, Letters, AD 253
It's still different.. But the point I was making is that the WMSCOG says they follow the teaches of the early church which is Christian. According to what you've presented, the early church was Catholic. So, the WMSCOG is a branch from CC, not Christianity. Being they are the daughters of CC they will receive the punishment of their mother, the harlot on the beast.
The Harlot riding the beast is not the Catholic Church. It's the apostate Jewish nation of 2,000 years ago.
I'll explain that this evening. 😉
emil wrote:
Simon wrote:
looks like as much revisionist history as WMSCOG in the opposite direction
Depends on who wrote the book. If you think there are errors in what Irenaeus has written, it would be better to point the errors out rather than make a sweeping statement.
Read how hate filled it is to non rcc
Translating catholicam as Catholic is disingenuous revisionism.
The actual meaning is universal not the denomination
On the contrary, very early on people can be seen using "Catholic" as a title. I already quoted St. Paciam's use of 'Catholic' as an official title in 375. There are many other examples.
In St. Ignatius' letter to the Smrynaeans he may be using it just as an adejctive, but that adjective and its meaning evolved into a title for the ecclesssial body of all orthodox Christians. Very shortly after the persecutions had ended around 316 we see Christians using the name as an official title, especially to distinguish themselves from heretical sects . The most famous example I can think of is from St. Augustine;
"In the Catholic Church, there are many other things which most justly keep me in her bosom. The consent of peoples and nations keeps me in the Church; so does her authority, inaugurated by miracles, nourished by hope, enlarged by love, established by age. The succession of priests keeps me, beginning from the very seat of the Apostle Peter, to whom the Lord, after His resurrection, gave it in charge to feed His sheep (Jn 21:15–19), down to the present episcopate.
And so, lastly, does the very name of Catholic, which, not without reason, amid so many heresies, the Church has thus retained; so that, though all heretics wish to be called Catholics, yet when a stranger asks where the Catholic Church meets, no heretic will venture to point to his own chapel or house.
Such then in number and importance are the precious ties belonging to the Christian name which keep a believer in the Catholic Church, as it is right they should … With you, where there is none of these things to attract or keep me… No one shall move me from the faith which binds my mind with ties so many and so strong to the Christian religion… For my part, I should not believe the gospel except as moved by the authority of the Catholic Church."
-St. Augustine, AD 354–430, Against the Epistle of Manichaeus called Fundamental, chapter 4: Proofs of the Catholic Faith.
When you look at the first and second century Church, you see a community celebrating the Eucharist, believing in a literal presence of Christ in the Eucharist, baptizing, and having bishops and presbytrs who have apostolic succession. Call it whatever you want, that's the Catholic Church.
For examples, read the Didache, St. Ignatius of Antioch, St. Justin Martyr…
whatever you seek to lie you can be as bad as them
The WMS hates the Catholic Church. That alone should be a clue.
If I have told a lie, prove it. Unlike the WMS, I would love for you to read history. Fact check me all you want. Read books on the early Church, from all different sources. Protestant, Catholic, Orthodox. Read the documents the early Christians wrote. I'm not afraid of what you'll find.
Don't take my word for it.
No ECFs use Catholic in the sense of denomination. Just because they use a word whose meaning has changed isn't evidenc…
Another issue is ECF's like Polycarp wouldn't consider today's church his church so how can we say ECF's are proof of today's Roman Catholic Church is the same church as the original church when they are in disagreement.
The notion of any of today's churches being a one true church is contrary to any mainstream doctrine including Roman Catholic who aknowledges salvation outside of it.
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