7 Thunders

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  • #6835
    Moved-Comment
    Participant

    This comment was originally posted on The 7 Thunders Secret – The Two Stone Tablets and has been moved here for further discussion:

    Renita says:

    In response to your arguement:

    In, 2 Sam, Job, & Ps, it says it thundered. However, in Rev, it says it sounded like thunder. All the verses you described "proving" when God speaks it thunders are different from the verses in Rev. To thunder & to sound like thunder is different. If I were to say that lightening hit earth with a bright flash. Then say that someone flashed a light in my face like lightening, I am not saying that lightening flashed in my face. But comparing the experience of seeing lightening to having a light shown in my face. As I understand it, when God spoke, it thundered according to 2 Sam, Job, & Ps. When other’s spoke, it sounded like thunder but was not thunder itself according to Rev. So, from a nuetral standpoint, not defending or offending the WMSCOG, I don’t see your point. Rev 10 must be God speaking because it wasn’t like thunder but thunder itself.

    In Ex 34:27, God said, "Write down these words, for in accordance with these words I have made a cov’t with you & with Israel." As it was taught to me & wasn’t fully explained in the article, the cov’t (the 10 Commandments) were made in accordance with "these words." But what were the words God spoke? They were the Feast of God. He describes them in verses 18 & 22. They are the 3 times God’s people appear before Him (Ex 34:23, Dt 16:16)

    I have read, for the 1st time, Dt 5:1-33. As I understand it, Moses began speaking about the 1st time they received the 10 Commandments. Dt 5:5, Moses explained that because they were afraid, they asked Moses to speak to God for them or they would die (Dt 5:24-27, Ex 20:18-19). So, my questions are: In Dt 5, is Moses just recalling what happened the 1st time he went up the mountain? If not, where is the Scripture to confirm? When were the Feast given to the Isrealites for the 1st time? I’m asking because if the Feasts were given when Moses got the 10 Commandments the 1st time, then the 2nd set would also have the Feast written on them according to Dt 10:4. These are serious questions I have. I am not defending the WMSCOG but shedding more light on what was said during my studies, how I understand them, & how I understand what you’re saying.

  • #45204

    Joshua
    Participant

    This is a common mistake. It says the stone tablets were written on both sides but it doesn’t say the feast were written on the tablets. The only thing that it does say is written on the tablets is the 10 commandments. An assumption has been made here that the commandments are written on the front and the feast are written on the back. It only says the tablets were written on both sides. Please read this for yourself. Don’t take my word for it and don’t take someone else’s word on what else is written. I always encourage people to do their own research. Find out for yourself. By the way I am not above being corrected if I am wrong. Pursue the truth for the truth will set you free.

    #45205

    Simon
    Participant

    Exodus 34:27 Then the Lord said to Moses, “Write down these words, for in accordance with these words I have made a covenant with you and with Israel.” 28 Moses was there with the Lord forty days and forty nights without eating bread or drinking water. And he wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant—the Ten Commandments.

    These words would be everything from Exodus 34:10-26 making Exodus 34:10-26 "the words of the covenant—the Ten Commandments."

    #45206

    Joshua
    Participant

    Thank you for making my point.

    #45207

    Simon
    Participant

    I am pretty sure my point contradicts yours.

    "the words of the covenant—the Ten Commandments.":

    10Then the Lord said: “I am making a covenant with you. Before all your people I will do wonders never before done in any nation in all the world. The people you live among will see how awesome is the work that I, the Lord, will do for you. 11Obey what I command you today. I will drive out before you the Amorites, Canaanites, Hittites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites. 12Be careful not to make a treaty with those who live in the land where you are going, or they will be a snare among you. 13Break down their altars, smash their sacred stones and cut down their Asherah poles.a 14Do not worship any other god, for the Lord, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God.

    15“Be careful not to make a treaty with those who live in the land; for when they prostitute themselves to their gods and sacrifice to them, they will invite you and you will eat their sacrifices. 16And when you choose some of their daughters as wives for your sons and those daughters prostitute themselves to their gods, they will lead your sons to do the same.

    17“Do not make cast idols.

    18“Celebrate the Feast of Unleavened Bread. For seven days eat bread made without yeast, as I commanded you. Do this at the appointed time in the month of Abib, for in that month you came out of Egypt.

    19“The first offspring of every womb belongs to me, including all the firstborn males of your livestock, whether from herd or flock. 20Redeem the firstborn donkey with a lamb, but if you do not redeem it, break its neck. Redeem all your firstborn sons.

    “No one is to appear before me empty-handed.

    21“Six days you shall labor, but on the seventh day you shall rest; even during the plowing season and harvest you must rest.

    22“Celebrate the Feast of Weeks with the firstfruits of the wheat harvest, and the Feast of Ingathering at the turn of the year.b 23Three times a year all your men are to appear before the Sovereign Lord, the God of Israel. 24I will drive out nations before you and enlarge your territory, and no one will covet your land when you go up three times each year to appear before the Lord your God.

    25“Do not offer the blood of a sacrifice to me along with anything containing yeast, and do not let any of the sacrifice from the Passover Feast remain until morning.

    26“Bring the best of the firstfruits of your soil to the house of the Lord your God.

    “Do not cook a young goat in its mother’s milk.”

    #45208

    genny
    Participant

    So you are saying that thet ten commandments are:

    1.  Do not make treaties.

    2.  Break down other gods' altars.

    3.  Do not worship any other god.

    4.  Do not make idols.

    5.  Celebrate the Feast of Unleavened Bread.

    6.  Redeem all the firstborns.

    7.  Give your tithes and offerings.

    8.  Rest on the seventh day.

    9.  Celebrate the Feasts of Weeks and Ingathering.

    10.  Do not mix blood and yeast in an offering.

    11.  Do not let the Passover sacrifice remain until morning.

    12.  Give your best to God.  (Don't give Him leftovers or defective stuff.)

    13.  Do not cook a young goat in its mother's milk.

    And there's no mention of murder, stealing, coveting, adultery, lying, honoring your parents, abusing the name of the Lord.  Would you like to think about that again?

    #45209

    Simon
    Participant

    I have to admit you bring up an interesting point but this is why we have a problem.

    Exodus 34:27 says that Exodus 34:10-26 are the words of the Covenant and Exodus 34:28 says the words of the Covenant are the Ten Commandments

     

    Deaut 5:22 says Deut 5:6-21 are the words on the stone tablets as spoken in 20:2-17 BUT they are not the same compare Exodus 20:8-11 with Deut 5:12-15 and Exodus 20:12 with Deut 5:16  and Exodus 20:17 with Deut 5:21. So we have a discrepency already.

    #45210

    genny
    Participant

    For Deut. 5 vs. Ex. 20, I'll share what The Big Book of Bible Difficulties (by Norman L. Geisler and Thomas Howe) write:

    Deuteronomy 5:6-21 — How could Moses alter the wording of the Ten Commandments from that which God spoke to him?

     

    Problem: In Deuteronomy 5:6-21 Moses repeats the Ten Commandments to Israel.  In reviewing the covenant which God made with Israel, Moses reviews the commandments which God gave to Israel at Sinai.  However, Moses' wording of the commandments in this passage is not exactly the same as teh wording of God in Exodus 20:2-17.  How could Moses alter the wording of the Ten Commandments from wording which God gave to him?

     

    Solution: First, it must be remembered that Moses' purpose in reviewing the Law is not to provide an exact word-for-word recitation of the statements in Exodus.  Moses is not only reviewing the Law, but he is expounding and explaining the Law and its implications and applications for entrance into and life in the Promised Land.

         Second, Moses was also under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit as he spoke and wrote the words in these passages in Deuteronomy.  Consequently, it is under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit that Moses altered, omitted, or added a word or phrase in his presentation of the Decalogue.

    In reading Ex. 20 and Deut. 5, I don't see any significant difference in the commandments that would cause a problem anyway.  He didn't omit one and replace it with something different.

    As for Ex. 34, I always thought of it this way…  Besides the 10 Commandments (traditional from Ex. 20 / Deut. 5), God had a whole lot of instructions for the Israelites (a LOT!).  In Ex. 34, He mentions some of them, but it's the 10 Commandments that were written on the tablets (Deut. 10:1-4).  If He had put ALL of His directions for the Israelites on the tablets, they'd have to be some pretty big, heavy tablets, definitely too heavy for Moses to carry, don't you think?

    #45211

    Simon
    Participant

    But I said what Exodus 34 says that the Tablets contained the words God's spoke in that chapter. In accordance with THESE words…

    #45212

    genny
    Participant

    shimon wrote:

    But I said what Exodus 34 says that the Tablets contained the words God's spoke in that chapter. In accordance with THESE words…

    Deuteronomy 10:1-4 is pretty clear that only the 10 Commandments were written on the tablets.  See also Deut. 4:11-14 and 5:22.

    The many other instructions God gave at this time were important and written down, but not on the same tablets.  I see God reminding the Israelites of His many other instructions at the same time as He's reminding them of the 10 Commandments.  Ex. 34 doesn't bother me.

    #45213

    Simon
    Participant

    He said he was speaking the words of the covenant and that the words of the covenant were in fact the ten commandments it needs stronger resolution than that

    #45214

    Joshua
    Participant

    What would stronger resolution be?

    #45215

    Simon
    Participant

    I do not know. Explanation for the contradiction in scripture.

    #45216

    Love'n Honey
    Participant

    Hey! Look what I found! My question still wasn't answered though. What's odd to me is that as I was reading over my notes I came across the answer. =)

    When were the Israelites given the tablets for the 1st time? When Moses came down the mount the 2nd time. The 1st time he came down he broke the tablets before he could give them to the Israelites. Ex 34:32. But the Israelites received the 10 Commandments, Feasts, & other laws after Moses came down the mount the 2nd time. Ex 19-23. However, all they heard was thunder. Ex 24:12 is when Moses went up the mount to receive the law and commandments. Ex 31:18 Moses received the tablets of the covenant and law. One might assume what was written there was everything God said from Ex 24 to Ex 31. Ex 34 God wrote the same thing as before on the tablets. He repeated some of what He said the last time Moses was up the mount. But this time God called the covenant law The 10 Commandments which were given already.. In Ex 35, Moses tells the Israelites what God commanded in Ex 19-23.

    I was looking into this because the notes I have about the 7 Feasts and their fulfillment. The WMSCOG says the fulfillment of the Israelites receiving the 10 Commandments the 1st time is when Jesus entered the Most Holy Place for the 1st time. They also say the fulfillment of the Israelites receiving the 10 Commandments the 2nd time is when Jesus entered the Most Holy Place again. But the bible shows us that the Israelites only received the 10 Commandments once when Moses came down from the mountain with the 2nd set of tablets.

    #45217

    Cephas' Brother
    Participant

    This relates in some way to that Ellen White lady and the SDA church then, right? They’re the ones who say that garbage about entering the most holy place a second time in 1844. I’ve often wondered just how much of the WMS theology is based on Adventist teachings. The fact that it is spun off of the SDA church makes it even harder for me to understand how people fall for this. Your God believed in a false prophet. Boom.

    #45218

    Simon
    Participant

    No the seven thunders isn't a SDA teaching SDA doesn't believe in keeping the feasts

    #45219

    emil
    Participant

    This is the way I see it.

    In the begining of Ex 34, God tells Moses to bring the tablets like the first ones on which He will write the same words as before. In the rest of the chapter, there is no mention about what God writes. One must therefore assume that God had told Moses He would do, He did. Moses did not think to mention it again in the chapter because it is obvious that God had done during the course of the chapter what He promised in the first verse itself.

    After that God gave verbal instructions to Moses which He commanded him to write. It seems pretty obvious to me that the words God told Moses to write are not a copy of the words which God himself wrote but they are additional instructions. Clearly this indicates that the tablets did not have the subsequent instructions but only what God had written on the first tablets.

    #45220

    emil
    Participant

    I just read the original article on which Renita had commented, thus initiating this thread. I like the quote from Deut 4:14 which makes the scope of the 7 feasts very clear. They were meant to be celebrated by the Israelites in the land they were to possess after crossing the Jordan. This is a major point that I have been trying to highlight. That not all God's laws mentioned in the OT are universal. As Hal mentioned, there are 613 laws.

    #45221

    Simon
    Participant

    So far as 613 that’s more traditional than an actual enumeration and zechariah did say gentiles will be required to keep the last feast and Isaiah sabbaths. soi am not 100% sure on limited scope at least always being limited

    #45222

    Simon
    Participant

    That said even if christians must keep feasts and even if they are on the stone tablets that doesn’t make them the seven thunders

    #45223

    Love'n Honey
    Participant

    I was reading Chapter 2 of the Green Book: The Seven Feasts of Three Times. Repeatedly, Ash says the 10 Commandments were written on the stone tablets.

    "The Lord chose the day on which Moses went up Mount Sinai for the first time to receive the Ten Commandments, and appointed it as the Pentecost; for He had already declared the Ten Commandments with His voice before Moses went up the mountain to receive them [Ex 20:1-19; Ex 24:15-18]."

    If the Feasts were written on the stone tablets along with the 10 Commandments, why didn't Ash say so? The whole chapter is about the Feasts so it would make sense to mention that the Feasts were written on the tablets, too. Plus, I searched on their site to see if there was any mention that the Feasts are written on the tablets but I didn't find anything. I also looked on YT and didn't find anything. I will admit it was a shallow search.

    I am forced to believe that Ash never taught that the Feasts were written on the stone tablets; this must be a new teaching.

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