Liberty

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  • #65908

    Liberty
    Participant

    Congratulations Azula! I know it took a great strength of character to walk away after 7 years. This is amazing, and better late then never. Don't become too overwhelmed or think too much about the 7 years that you have lost. Just look at them as a learning experience, and embrace that you are in a new phase of your life now. Take joy in the fact that you can live life how you want, and you don't have to be burdened about the fear ofgoing to hell, or worry about all the commandments and demands that you must follow. Now you can simply enjoy your life.

     

    That's what helped me heal the most. I don't want to downplay the fact that you will feel hurt, confusion, anger, betrayal, disbelief and a range of other emotions. But for me, it helped most to think about all the good things I had going in my life, and to try to re-establish bonds with friends and family- bonds that had suffered during my time in the church. I didn't finish my schooling because of the church, so as soon as I got out, I made a goal to enroll back in school, work on developing a career, and enjoying hobbies. Remember, "there is always light at the end of the tunnel."

    #65857

    Liberty
    Participant

    Simon wrote:

    Its two-fold actually I don't want them unfairly blamed because it is wrong to lie about people… but also because everytime we say something incorrect about them it lowers credibility when we say legitimate things

    This is probably one of the wisest and most insightful things that I've seen Simon say. I see great value in posts such as this one.

    However, I don't know if I've come across anything untrue on this website, imo. Former members have various perspectives. Different perspectives doesn't mean that one is lying. Every Zion was a little bit different. And even if you attended the same Zion as another member, perspectives can still differ, depending on who you were around, when you came, what activities you were involved in, and general personality and personal view of the world. All those things shape our experiences in the WMSCOG.

    #65832

    Liberty
    Participant

    My first post after a 7 month hiatus.

     

    My post has a bit of a different spin to it, as they usually do. You see, it was actually issues like this that made me leave Zion.

     

    First, let me say that I believe very much in being positive and trying to maintain a positive energy in your day to day life. I feel that you attract what you put out, especially as I've become a LOA believer since leaving WMSCOG and mainstream traditional Christianity. I believe it is best to try to see the good in some unfortunate situations and to try to always be a positive person.

     

    BUT……..

     

    I also believe in our right to be human. No human is happy 100% of the time. We have every right to be sad, mad, angry, upset, ashamed, frustrated whenever it suits us, and we shouldn't ever had to feel bad for experiencing a full range of human emotions.

     

    Let's say, for example, your puppy died. If you had some sort of attachment to this puppy, then it would be normal to be sad. It would be perfectly okay to cry, and be upset and express your grief.

    Now from my perspective, I'm not an animal person, so people feeling grief over animals is a bit of a difficult concept for me to understand. But if a friend comes to me for comfort, I'm not going to say, "Who cares that your stupid puppy died. It's just an animal." Even if that is what I'm thinking, it would be highly insensitive to say that. Sometimes we must put aside our own agenda for others, especially if we care about them. So I would likely say, "Oh, I'm so sorry for your loss, I know your puppy meant so much to you. Let me give you a hug and I'm here for you if you need to talk," or something like that.

     

    Likewise, I expected the members of WSMCOG to be better people and to be able to put aside their own agenda for the sake of their members. But whenever I had some personal issue, I would sometimes receive a heartless reply from one of the leaders. They would dismiss it and say something like, "Who cares? It's Earthly and Worldly." We're going to Heaven so don't worry about it Sister."

    How can you keep a smile on your face when someone says to you, "My relative just died; my car just broke down; I lost my job; I don't have enough money to pay my mortgage; I have a bad headache, etc,etc,etc. I don't care how positive of a person you want to be- it is inappropriate to have a smile on your face when someone tells you these things.

    I feel to be happy 100% of the time, or to never worry about anything is unrealistic. That's how Zion came across to me- as unrealistic. Not only that, but when you were feeling down, or frustrated or upset, no one really cared. The mentality seemed to be that if you were sad- the problem was with you. Pastor John Lee even stated as much in a few of his sermons, trying to guilt-trip his congregation. I felt that I never got the support that I needed there. Once, when I told a Deaconness of my troubles-she just kept a smile on her face and said, "God Bless You." It seemed incredibly fake. I can't relate to people don't have a knack for certain human interactions, and this seemed to be the case for many members who had attended this church for several years. Despite my time in Zion, I had never really lost this aspect to my character. I am sure this was a good thing, because it helped me to eventually get out.

    #58723

    Liberty
    Participant

    Well, I don't mean to rain on your parade Harry because I can see how excited you are. Maybe this will reach some people.

    While I an normally all for fighting against the wmscog, this method just doesn't sound like my cup of tea at all. But good luck with the song if you ever post it.

    #58551

    Liberty
    Participant

    IrenaeusFTW wrote:

    Hello everybody. I think I'm probably an usual poster for this forum, and think I might have come on a bit strong and rocked the boat a little too hard. I thought it would be nice to introduce myself.

     

     

    Welcome Irenaeus! We are very happy to have you in this forum. You are probably about as zealous in your beliefs as I am in mine. Don't ever be afraid of rocking the boat or making bold statements. It gives for an interesting read and there are many out there who you may reach out to. Thank you for your courage to post here and share your story.

     

    And I wish I had been kicked out like you had. As another poster said- we would've been better off 🙂

    #52978

    Liberty
    Participant

    Those are all beautiful scriptures Irenaeus. I do admire that you use scriptural evidence for the basis of your beliefs.

    But I'm a very different person in that regard. Even if there is good and bad in Christ's church, there are just some things that I cannot, will not and will never ever accept from a church. Also, it is my personal experiences that lead me to the beliefs that I have now and I am pretty firm on that. Nothing can change that either, not even God. The reason I say that, is because I believe God is the one who allowed those experiences to happen in the first place, so that he could tell me something. And I heard those reasons loud and clear, and he definitely got his point across.

    I believe everything happens for a reason. Some things hapen to show you were you should not be. Just like the wmscog.

     

    I also believe that each individual is different and what speaks/works for some will not speak/work for others. I also believe that was God's doing for a wonderful purpose. Another reason why I believe there is no "truth" on Earth, because we were not all meant to operate the same way.

    #58720

    Liberty
    Participant

    I think we should refrain from the swearing and coarse language. I think that it sends the wrong message.

    We can fight against the wmscog, while using polite and sophisticated language.

    #52976

    Liberty
    Participant

    genny wrote:

    emil wrote:

    There is a huge body of misconception out there about the Catholic church. Fullton Sheen said:

    There are not one hundred people in the United States who hate The Catholic Church, but there are millions who hate what they wrongly perceive the Catholic Church to be.

    That is a great quote, emil.  I think it's good to try to clear those misperceptions, especially if we can do so in a way that doesn't appear to be fighting between Christians–I think that would only hurt our cause.

    I've refrained a bit from speaking in this thread. But just throwing it out there. I know plenty of people, including myself, who dislike the catholic church from personal experiences, not from misconceptions. That quote is 100% wrong, imo. God would never allow bad experiences to happen in the true church. They would never happen PERIOD.God is 100% good and his church would be as well.

     

    Not just slamming the Catholic Church here. No church is 100% good. It's just like how we know the wmscog was bad because of our experienes there. Certain things wouldn't have happened had they been 100% good. How can we pose a double standard for another denomination? Shouldn't we examine our own churches/doctrines/religions/whatever as critically as we do the wmscog?

     

    The fact that Christians fight only proves that no one knows the truth. Someone posted a quote about orphans.

    But I actually agree with the wmscog's stance that all truth would be lost once the apostles died, and no one was left to defend it. We will never be orphans because God in Heaven is our Father/Mother/Provider/whatever. But not being an orphan doesn't mean that we have all the truth.

    But I'm probably not helping the issue here, but I always like to give my opinion on the matter.

    #58248

    Liberty
    Participant

    Simon wrote:

    Nope

    That could explain why your experiences were vastly different from everyone else's then. It's starting to make sense-  a little bit.

    #58763

    Liberty
    Participant

    I used to be a voiceless user/lurker until about two months ago. I didn't actually make a profile though, until I was ready to posts. But I learned a ton from "lurking," and I am forever grateful to this forum for that.

    #58744

    Liberty
    Participant

    Interestingly enough, I have never received a pm like this, and I am pretty self-descriptive on here. I'm sure some current members who knew me well, can tell that I post here. My phone has been dead silent- except for the two invites I received to attend Passover and a phone call about five months ago. But no pm's.

    #58246

    Liberty
    Participant

    justasitis wrote:

    Simon wrote:

    if I weren't homeless stuck living in a motel at the mo anyone would be welcome to flee to my house if it were truly needed LOL

     

    but the only one to go to is God

    So not quite homeless – you have somewhere to live – even if not your 'preferred choice'. But your welcome to host any and all is welcome and clear – as is your love for your fellow 'man'. And in times of need, I agree – go to God. There really is nowhere else to go. 

    I could be wrong, but I think he was joking justasitis.

    #58533

    Liberty
    Participant

    justasitis wrote:

    The kind of judgement I think we should all avoid is of the type that then goes on to say that the behaviour is good or bad, should or should not have happened, is positive or negative in any way. None of us can see the whole picture or know God's plan.

    I definitely disagree with the above portion. There is without a doubt behaviors that are bad.

    I think we should be a people who don't tolerate BS or any type of evil. Some things are just plain BS and just plain evil, and there is no other way to sugarcoat or throw a positive spin on the situation.

    #58187

    Liberty
    Participant

    Kim wrote:

    I know what your both saying, but what I am saying is that not everything that she was taught is 100% inaccurate.    First and foremost it is quoted from the bible.  Those are the words of God, BUT they have added & taken away, and twisted God's word to fit their doctrine.  She has to realize that and turn it back around to the original state of which it was meant to be known, and not be defeated by them or else they win twice.

    the first time they were wining by deception, but she realized it,(thank God)  but now if she stops believing completely in God's word and what's in the bible, because of that deception then satan can still win by taking her soul if she becomes an unbeliever.

    We have to remember that there is alot of lies mixed with the Truth here, so it's not easy.

    I'm not really sure how to respond to that.

    I'm don't believe than I'm an unbeliever, but I suppose I'm not the best "Christian," either. I just have a different path now, and it's difficult to explain. After my experience with the wmscog , I'm just not about religious oppression/doctrine/rules when I don't believe anyone truly knows 100% how to interpret the bible or worship Christ.

    #52916

    Liberty
    Participant

    Kim wrote:

     Yes notice* I said God did not create Religion(s) man did.  There is only one GOD, therefore there should be only one way.

    I also believe that there should only be one way. The problem is that no one knows the one way anymore.

    That's my whole dilemma. How can I base my foundation on something that no one knows? How can we be condemed for what we don't know and have no way of knowing?

    #52915

    Liberty
    Participant

    Kim wrote:

    Jesus did not create religions, man did.  Jesus only spoke of One Father and the kingdom of heaven.  This is why I don't like religion, it's like politics, everyone wants to be right, (by mans word) but we need to concentrate on what Jesus said and not man.

    1 John 4:4

    Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

    There is only ONE GOD so why so many different religions, because everyone wants to put things their way, and not GOD'S way.  Wake up people forget about what you were taught and search and study the scriptures yourself, and depend on GOD for the understanding and wisdom, not man.  GOD BLESS!

     

     

     

    While I completely understand and agree with what you are saying to an extent, I think people have been trying to do just that all along. I feel that the majority of Christian denominations came about from truly sincere people wanting to understand and worship God correctly. Unfortunately, the couldn't all agree, and the

    Catholics and all the denominations of Protestantism feel they are searching the scriptures for themselves and relying on God's word. However, what people think that is can be different. I believe that is the reason for all the denominations. I don't believe the intention was for them to deceive at all- but rather have people truly worship God in the way they felt the Bible explained to do so.

     

    My problem is that no one is here to specifically tell us right and wrong, and I think that no one is "right." I've met many genuine people who swear they are connected with the Holy Spirit and rely solely on God & the scriptures, yet they can all say and believe different things.

    #58178

    Liberty
    Participant

    KF wrote:

    Liberty, you can not let your bad experience with the WMS keep you from believing in the bible & God's word. If you do that then they succeed in misleading not once, but twice!  You can not let satan win.

     You fell…… now get up….. dust it off…… and try again.  Fight like a warrior don't give up & search for what your looking for until you are satisfied.  Stand firm in Jesus Christ!

    Can you please tell me why do you think 2CC should have come in 1948.  It's not only the WMS who tells the story of the fig tree and Israel.  What scriptures are you speaking of those.    According to Jesus no one would know the hour or day so I don't understand why man always thinks he knows everything.

    Jesus said Know "that it is Near"……..but near can be anytime……… he said that 2,000 years ago……just because Israel got it's country back in 1948 does not mean that God was to return that year.  Near can be after many other events that have not happen yet, begin to happen.

    In My Opinion if you take what the WMS taught you and remove  Ahnsanghong & mother and the prayer of our wishes etc., and replace it with the name JESUS & OUR HEAVENLY FATHER the rest is God's truth, you saw it in the bible in black and white.

     

    Oh I definitely believe I am a Warrior! A resilient, determined one at that! I'm just going about things a bit differently right now. But I understand what you are saying.

    Wmscog wasn't the only bad experience; however, it was the biggest deception.

    And I believed in the Lesson of the Fig Tree as the wmscog preached it. I had never been taught that from anyone else, so I don't know any other interpretation to it. But it's true that "near" can mean anything.

    Emil makes a good point as well, when he says to be careful about what to believe from the wmscog. But I don't believe that it was all bad. And my goal is to eventually give all the credit and glory back to the true Heavenly Father. I am still in my journey to figure out exactly how to do that. While many like to say, "oh, just be a good person," I don't believe that is actually enough. "Good person," means different things to different people. For instance, someone can think that they are a good person, and I could think that they are a crappy person. It's very subjective. But I'm still on my journey to learn how to please the true God.

     

    Also, thanks for the encouragement everyone. It definitely lifted my spirits 🙂 I still have faith that in the end, God will guide me to the path he wants. I'm just floating right now, and I'm fine with that.

    #58530

    Liberty
    Participant

    Sarah2013 wrote:

    I agree we should love one another, no doubt. Having said that, it is that same love we are trying to execute by helping those who are being deceived. If deception didn't exist, God would not have told us to be careful so that no one deceives us. The bible says judge not that you are not judged ( paraphrased). However, is that scripture really saying we are to completely refrain from judging? I doubt that. There is something called a good judge of character and traits. When inconsistency exist in something, we need to assess the situation and judge it for accuracy. If not so, then a lot of innocent people on trial may be found guilty when in fact if judged accurately they would be found innocent.

    Yes, you are right in saying nobody is perfect, I can't disagree one bit on that. We still need to be cautious in life especially if reason(s) for suspicion arises. No?

    You are so full of wisdom Sarah. I agree 100% with everything you just said. Very well-stated.

    #57377

    Liberty
    Participant

    genny wrote:

    Liberty, I liked your thoughtful response about the topic.

    Liberty wrote:

    Also, God is not going to intervene and allow a supernatural event to take place everytime someone refrains from lying. How many have genuinely good-hearted God-loving people have tried to to the same thing but continue to get less than favorable results? I'd rather be smart about the situation. I think to expect God to come through with a supernatural event everytime you refrain from telling a lie in a life or death situation is just plain dumb. Sorry to be blunt.

    I just think that we should remember that it's possible for God to do such a thing.  We should not expect it, but should not rule it out either.

    I just think for anyone to 100% never tell a lie, is impossible.

    I agree with that.  Whether intentionally or not, everyone ends up lying sometime, in one way or another.  I still don't think that makes lying ok in God's eyes, still a sin, but it shows us how much we must rely on God's grace and forgiveness because we can't live a perfect life, no matter how hard we try.

     

    Thank you for saying that Genny. I always enjoy your responses in general, I find them always to be thought-ful. Even if I may disagree slightly, I enjoy reading them. And I can learn a lot from you, I'm sure.

    It is true that we can't live a perfect life no matter how hard we try. We just aren't perfect creatures. We do bad things intentionally and unintentionally at times. I think we were made that way.

    When I was at the wmscog, I was trying so hard to "crucify" myself and kill myself. I knew if I didn't give up my "sinful nature," I couldn't go to Heaven. I wanted to go to Heaven so badly and I did so many things to try to make myself perfect. Lots of tears, fasting, prayers, dedication of my time. But it didn't work, and I have absolutely nothing to show for it.

    That's why now, I don't want to waste any more precious hours of my life trying to be perfect and sinless. I don't want to strive for the impossible. I think it's a waste of time. We will never be perfect so why try? Just like, we will never be able to fly, so why try? Think if we put all our minds and energy into things that we actually could do to make a difference in this world.

    Again when I say that, I am not trying to give myself a pass by any means. I'm not trying to justify sinning ( I know it seems that way though). I'm not saying that because something is too hard, that you should just give up and not try to strive for it. Lots of things in this world are hard, and its never easy to always make the right choice. We should always strive to do the right thing, no matter how hard it is.

    It's just that no matter how good, nice, kind, compassionate, friendly, giving, loving, etc, etc, etc. that I try to be, I'm never going to be completely sinless. It's just not going to happen. But instead of continually trying to beat myself up about it, I want to just embrace the person I am and be proud of myself. That was something that I was not allowed to do while I was at the wmscog, but it is definitely my motto now.

    I am actually quite strict on myself and others. Many think I'm judgmental (and I probably am). I still hold very high standards for myself and others. That is not going to change. But I rather strive to be practical than strive for the impossible. I strongly feel that way after my experience at the wmscog.

    If in our journey to be the best person that we can be, we slip up and lie somtimes or sin in some way, yet our intention was 100% in the right place, then it's certainly not the end of the world. It's just hard for me to imagine the God above to really be disapproving of that. If so, then it doesn't really sit right with me. How can God give us a goal that he knows is impossible? That is my problem with the Bible and religion, I guess. Why not give us something that we can truly do and strive for?

    #57375

    Liberty
    Participant

    renita.payno wrote:

    Age of accountability:

    I read an article about toddlers lying. I didn't understand why my baby would lie to me about something as stupid as the color of her shirt, so I looked it up. The article said that though toddlers are aware that what they are saying is not true, they still tell lies not to be lying but to be creative. Pretending. Toying with their imagination. A toddler who doesn't lie about ridiculous things lacks the imagination of one that does lie about ridiculous things. After reading this, I started letting Anaya tell these stupid lies because I don't want to take her imagination away from her. But at the end of the day, it's still lying which, according to Scripture, is what God hates and can very well send you to hell. Now, will God allow toddlers or people with the mind of toddlers slide? Yo no se..

    This is a good point Renita. I've always believed that lying isn't always bad. I think it depends on the intent. I use to make up creative stories all the time as a child. Sometimes, when asked about my day, I would put a "creative" spin on my day to make it seem more interesting. I might say that they served us 100 apples for dessert, when it was probably only 10. I didn't know the exact number, so exaggerated. Or I might say the cat ran through the room at lightning speed. It probably really only ran at a moderate pace. But I didn't even know what exaggeration was at that age. I just wanted to be silly. I might say a monkey jumped on a chair when there really wasn't one. My mom always knew when I was being silly though and making my stories more "colorful." My family just thought it was cute. And no, I didn't grow up to be a pathological liar 😛 

    I'd like to think I have quite an acute conscience, actually.

    At the end of the day, it's harmless. And again, the bible doesn't have a solution/example for every single problem, issue or concern that may come up in life.I think its up to us to have our own judgment/discernment about what is good and bad. I think its quite easy actually. Majority of people know the type of lies that wouldn't be okay by any means. Not that it keeps some from not doing it, but they know.

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