[DavidsChild]

Every single thing I've read on this site can be disproved rather easily.

But..

One thing we all have to ask ourselves: Would you believe in the 2nd coming of Christ? Would you have believed 2,000 years ago when nobody else did? When you saw God in the flesh being treated like a scum? Or would you use your own thoughts as well as other's own thoughts to try not to believe it?

Please think about this.

If somebody truly wants to believe and is just confused, I would love to answer your questions.

 

To me, that doesn't seem like the case.. so it would not be worthwhile to go through and answer every single thing. Why would you try so hard to do all of this?

 

One answer I may receive would be about parents who have children in the COG.  When somebody told Jesus that his family members were waiting for him outside, he said "For whoever does the will of My Father who is in heaven, he is My brother and sister and mother." Matthew 12:50

John 1:12-13 " Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of GodYet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of GodYet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right become children born of God- children not born of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God"

It is the same now.

He was born a jew… but is God really a jew? Is that how God is identified? Is that truly who he is? Did that even matter? No. If it did matter, then God is just a jewish carpenter, and he would have parents. These things are not of importance.

Jesus's physical parents may have felt the same way as some who have children in the COG. The ways of this world make it very hard to accept these things.. but this planet is not God's Kingdom. God's Kingdom is in Heaven. Then who does this kingdom belong to?

 

God bless you.

[Emily]

[Emily]

Interesting that you would bring that issue up DavidsChild.  I was actually reading a book by a woman named Mary Alice called Twisted Scriptures.  Mary Alice was in a Bible based group that taught her the same interpretation of a similar verse in Mark 3:31-34.  I will quote the book p. 176:

"By using this verse, our group was powerfully driven to feel isolated from all outsiders we believed weren't committed as we were.  Those of us within the group truly felt we were brothers and sisters.  I emotionally distanced myself from my blood relatives.  They didn't count as much."

Do you think that the WMSCOG's interpretation of Matthew 12:50 accomplishes the same goal with its members?  I am interested in your view on this.

Mary Alice goes on to explain that the love Jesus had for his mother was well known.  She sites John 2:1-11 when Jesus fulfills his mother's request to  turn water into wine even though he was not ready to begin his ministry.  Jesus also followed his parents in obedience in Luke 2:41-51 when they found him in the temple.  Jesus said that he must be of His Father's business, but left with his parents anyway.  Did Jesus not set the example of how pleasing is to God when we respect our family?

Are you willing to look at the information about the WMSCOG objectively?  Or have you already said to yourself, I don't wanna hear it, I know it isn't true, I won't believe it?  Do you think that you are doubting God if you have even one critical thought in your mind about the WMSCOG?  Have you separated yourself from your family and friends outside of the WMSCOG?  

Please refrain from using the "history is repeating itself" cop-out excuse.  Followers of SunMyungMoon say the same thing when they claim that he is the "messiah".  It really does not prove anything.

I look forward to your response.

[DavidsChild]

With your first question, I'm not exactly sure what you're asking, but we don't thrive on being "isolated". By knowing 2nd coming christ, we are unisolated. The bible testifies about a narrow gate into heaven (Matt 7:13-14). Even without indulging further, we can already see that the number of people going into heaven will be small in comparison to the world's population. Zion is where God has chosen to dwell (Psalms 132:13). Nowhere else on Earth can you find God but in Zion, where his holy feasts are kept (Isaiah 33:20). Why  would we want to be outside of Zion? It's like not wanting to be in heaven. This is not necessarily preached to members. Through faith, preaching and bible study we come to realize thesle things.

I have no obligation to my church. Really. I was never asked about what I do outside of church or anything like that. They only wanted me to study and keep service. No other church is as pure. It's truly amazing.

Why wouldn't he want to be away from his Father? If you read John 1:12-13 it claims that we are only children of God. Revelation 4:11 says that everything was created according to God's will. From this, we can see that families were created according to God's will. Think about it.. he could've had us come into the world on our own.. but we are all born into families because a family shows God's love. A father's tough love and tireless work, a mother's sacrifice and willingness to go to any lengths for their child. This is all according to God's will, to show God's love for us. Basically the last half of the ten commandments are for relationships on Earth. Obviously, God is more important. If our physical parent's will gets in the way of God's will, what should we pick? We have to pick God's Jesus didn't do everything according to his parent's will. Do you think they wanted him to do anything that he did?

I've heard quite a bit. I've seen it all. I've been on the skeptical side. That's what always steered me away from other churches. This truth is absolute. It's flawless. Nothing else under the sun compares.

John 15:18-19 "If the world hates you, keep in mind that it hated me first. If you belonged to the world, it would love you as its own. As it is, you do not belong to the world, but I have chosen you out of the world. That is why the world hates you. " If we are persecuted, and we are following God's will, then persecution is only a blessing.

Also, Matt 22:14 "For many are invited, but few are chosen." In short, in this parable, Jesus compares the Kingdom of Heaven to a wedding banquet. There has to a bride, bridegroom and guests. The bride is to be revealed by the lamb (2nd coming) in the last days, and she is our mother (Rev 19:7 21:9 Gal 4:26). Through this, we are being chosen out of the world. Only few are chosen. There is a narrow gate. Mark 15-16 He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation.  Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. 

If you want to save lives by curing cancer and you parents didn't want you to.. what should you do? Obviously, we should honor our parents. But we need to understand that there are physical situations that are only a shadow to the realities.

Hebrews 10:1 The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming—not the realities themselves

We need to honor our spritual parents first.

This is God's will. This is what we're chosen to do.

By the way.. our church is absolutely nothing like SunMyungMoon. Sunny Moon fulfilled 0 prophecy and has lived a life of controversy, greed and lust. Doesn't he marry every female member? Hah. That's it. Ahnsahnghong restored truths and revealed my mother. He saved me, in every way.

 God bless you!

[Emily]

DavidsChild,

I never said that you "thrive on being isolated".  I was quoting a book about someone's experienced in a controlling Bible-based group.  But if you spend most of your time within the wms, wouldn't you then be isolated from your family, friends, and the outside world? 

You say that God dwells in your church.  What do you think about Acts 17:24?

You say that you do not have any obligation to your church.  Do you spend time there everyday?  If so, what if you decided that you would spend time there 3 days per week for example.  Would there be any consequences?  Would your "brothers" or "sisters" start texting you like crazy to see why you aren't there.  Would you be obligated to give an explanation? 

You said that if you are persecuted, that means that you are doing God's will.  The Mormons and the Jehovah's Witnesses say the same thing.  Is it proof that they are doing God's will too?

Here is a quote from the Mormons so that you can see what I mean:

"Although the religions of men are often tolerant of each other, they cannot abide the presence of living prophets and thetruths of salvation.  Their bitterness and opposition toward Mormonism are an essential witness of its truthfulness.  Validity draws the fire…If our message does not give offense to that which is ungodly, it has no claim on that which is heavenly. It has been properly said that light and darkness will never meet and that Christ and Satan will never shake hands.  If Mormonism were not true, it could be ignored. The fact that Satan and his cohorts cannot leave it alone is an evidence of its truthfulness."  Joseph Fielding McConkie

Is the Mormon doctrine true just because people persecute them?

I'm not so sure that your analogy on saving people with cancer really applies here.  I can't imagine someone's parents objecting to their son or daughter bein an oncologist that saves lives.  Would the doctor stop spending time with his family because they weren't oncologists saving lives right along with him?  Would the oncologist disconnect himself from his friends because they didn't approve of his career choice?  Would the oncologist divorce his wife and leave his children because she refused to become an oncologist?  No of course not.  But wmscog members are expected to do just that.  Members cut off those that do not want to become members of the wmscog.  Is that love?  Is that what God really intended?

How do parents get in the way of you doing God's will?  Can you please be more specific on what you mean by this?

Hebrews 10:1 is referring to the animal sacrifices of the old law not being able to completely atone for sins.  The shadow being the animal sacrifices of the old law and the reality being the sacrifice that Jesus Christ made on the cross that does atone for our sins.  How does this apply to your comparison between what you called "spiritual" and "physical" parents. 

SunMyungMoon has a lot in common with your church actually.  They were the first to teach the concept of "heavenly parents" over ten years before Ahnsahnghong established his church.  He also taught that "cloud means flesh" way before Ahnsahnghong.  He also taught the "new name" argument before Ahnsahnghong.  He also taught that "from the east" in Isaiah pointed to Korea before Ahnsahnghong.  And no he doesn't marry every female member.  Where did you get that info from?  He is known to arrange all of the marriages among the members of his church though.  What controversy, greed, and lust?  Can you please site where you are getting your info from?  Aren't you persecuting the Unification Church by the statements you are making?  By your reasoning, they would be doing God's will too right?

Are you willing to share your first experience with the wmscog?  Were you recruited on the street or did a friend invite you?  

God bless you too DavidsChild! 

 

[DavidsChild]

If they're not God's people… who's people are they? Did the disciples spend all of their time with their family after the resurrection? No. They were preaching. At the 2nd coming, of course it would be the same way.

I'm pretty sure that you're taking things in a certain context on purpose. I said there is persecution for following God's will.

If we spend all of our time with family.. are we doing God's will? God saved us. Ahnsahnghong preached for 37 years. Think about this. What are people usually doing at age 30? Maybe buying a house, settling down. Trying to advance in their career. Workin to make more money, to get that next promotion. Trying to advance their lifestyle. Or maybe just spending their free time relaxing and such (Luke 13-21). What did Ahnsahnghong do? He could've done anything here. Very smart. But he lived in a shack and preached sun up til sun down. Working a job that nobody wanted. He was a stonemason (2 Sam 5:11). That's backbreaking work. He didn't even have much money.. living off of not much more than porridge. Staying up all night to write the books of truth. He had no electricity. No water heater. Could you have worse living conditions? For 37 years. He started this all alone. Nobody was even baptized for 8 years. So alone. So cold. I couldn't imagine. It breaks my heart that God would have to go through such great lengths to show how much he loves us. And of course, all along the way he was fulfilling prophecy (coming in the clouds, order of Melchizedek, King David, parable of the Fig Tree, etc.) and only to reveal our mother. And if you could see what Mother does on a daily basis… really the result is the same. So much heartache, so much suffering… just for their children.

Could that be just some guy? Really? Nobody else could possibly do all of this. That's God. If you don't believe that… you may be insane.

Sunny Moon fulfilled zero prophecy. He did not re-establish Zion, the city of God's feasts. The bible says to watch out for false christs. There have been many false christs in South Korea. Biblicists know that's it has to be from the east. The  bible was written in the Middle East, and the eastern part of Asia is referred to as the Far East. This doesn't make Sunny Moon special. They have tried to mimic the church in a few ways, but they don't follow God's will. With understanding of our church, you can realize they are completely different. Satan always works hard to mimic the truth. Passover… commmunion. Sabbath day…. sunday. All of the worldly feasts.. God's feasts.

Cut off? Nobody is cut off. Everybody still has contact with their families that I know. I still do and that won't change. Some members help start other churches and move away to do so. People move away for jobs and such. We do not encourage people to not talk to their families by any stretch. Not all people are God's people though.. Jesus always put the gospel work first and even said that only who does the will of God is his family. Spiritual family.The Kingdom of Heaven is more important. Everything here will perish. The gospel is priority #1.

There is a shadow and a reality. The law was the shadow, the reality was Jesus as the lamb. Matt 12:50 testifies about a spritual family. Whoever does the will of God is his family. Were they born to the same earthly parents? No. That is because God's children are born of God (John 1:12-13) not of human nature or a husband's will. Through the passover bread and wine we become one. We are all getting life from the same source. That makes us family 🙂

Sorry if I answered everything way out of order. Haha.

[Emily]

Actually there are a few questions that you didn't answer at all but I'll get to those.

You said, "I said there is persecution for following God's will".  Do you think that everyone that is persecuted or says that they are, are all doing God's will?  Do you think that the fact that people don't agree with your church is evidence that your church is the right church?

So you discuss the living conditions under which your church tells you that Ahnsahnghong lived.  How many other people in S. Korea at the time do you think lived equally difficult lives?  This is not proof that he was more than a man.  But ok then you also said that no one was baptized for 8 years.  Where is that in the prophecy about him?  Have you done any research about the prophecies that your church teaches?  Or did you just take their word for it from the beginning?  Do you think that you can understand the Bible on your own if you prayed to God to reveal the truth to you?  Or do you need your organization to teach you everything?

How do you bridge the connection between Hewbrews 10:1 that talks about the Old Law and Jesus being the reality, to families.  Do you think that this verse applies to everything?  Where in the Bible does it say that the family on earth is a shadow of anything heavenly?  You said that "only who does the will of God is his family".  I think you added the word "only".  The word "only" implies that Jesus did not revere his family as important, which we have already established is not true.  I don't see where Jesus mentions a shadow and a reality anywhere in Matthew 12.  Why do you think that this applies anywhere else in the Bible except where specifically mentioned?  I mean it's convenient to what your church believes but I would like to see Biblical proof.

You didn't answer my question about Acts 17:24.  I would appreciate your thoughts on this.  If it says that God does not dwell in any earthly temple, why would you believe that the prophecy of Zion points to a Zion on earth? 

You didn't answer these questions either:

1. You say that you do not have any obligation to your church.  Do you spend time there everyday?  If so, what if you decided that you would spend time there 3 days per week for example.  Would there be any consequences?  Would your "brothers" or "sisters" start texting you like crazy to see why you aren't there.  Would you be obligated to give an explanation?
2. How do parents get in the way of you doing God's will?  Can you please be more specific on what you mean by this?
3. Are you willing to share your first experience with the wmscog?  Were you recruited on the street or did a friend invite you? 

 

Also, how long have you been a member?  You say that everyone still has contact with their family that you know of.  Just wondering if you have been there long enough to know or ask these questions. 

Thank you for your time.  Hope to hear from you soon.

[ChildOfZion]

To Emily: "Mary Alice goes on to explain that the love Jesus had for his mother was well known."  God's children listen to God's voice not Mary Alice's voice (Jn. 8:47).

matthew 10:36- A man's enemies will be the members of his own household (family).

Matthew10:37: Anyone who loves their father or mother more than me is not worthy of me. "Did Jesus not set the example of how pleasing is to God when we respect our family?"

matthew 12:50 Jesus said His true family were those who do the will of God. Jesus made it clear that to putting family before the commandments of God is sinful.

No one in the CoG teaches to disrespect family. How can anyone listen to the truth if we disrespect them. Do some of us maybe sometimes disrespect someone? I have, but I am not perfect and I do wish I could have done some things differently. But the Jesus Christ did say we have to follow Him; we must put Him first, even before our physical familes. A man wanted to follow Jesus, but also wanted to bury his dead father. What did God say to the man? Let the Dead bury their Dead and follow me. Is that respectful in your opinion?

"But if you spend most of your time within the wms, wouldn't you then be isolated from your family, friends, and the outside world?" You said we are isolated from the world. Yet, every day we go out into the world and preach about the Bible. How is that isolation? We invite anyone we can find to come for Bible study. How is that being isolated? We would love for everyone to come into the truth.

"How do parents get in the way of you doing God's will?  Can you please be more specific on what you mean by this?" So what did the apostles do with their family? Didnt they just leave everything to follow Christ? What if apostle Peter's parents said not to follow Jesus? His parent's would have been obstructing the will of God. That's one example how family can keep you from doing the will of God. For some reason you think that we must obey the family over God. Please read the scriptures again.

This is just my response to your questions about family. Anyone who reads the Bible can see clearly that we must follow Christ, not our family members. I think this should be sufficent to answer question number 2.

[ChildOfZion]

To Emily,

Acts 17:24 is refering to a physical temple. God dwells in the spiritual zion, where the feasts of the New Covenant are kept.

Heb. 12:22 When we worship in accordance to the Law of Christ (new covenant) we are not worshiping on the earth! We are in the Heavenly realms with thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly. Think about who the Hebrews were. Is there anything Paul can teach them about the physical Zion? No. He is teaching them about the spiritual zion, established by the spiritual Daivid, Jesus Christ. If you continue to look at the new covenant with your physical eyes, you will be just like the pharisee 2000 years ago who only looked at Jesus with their physical eyes.

Micha 4:1 In the last days, Zion is to be rebuilt. So the dwelling place of God will be rebuilt in the last days according to the scriputres. That also means it was destroyed. Zion is the place of God's feasts according to the Bible. What feasts of the Bible do you keep? Do you keep Sunday worship as your regular weekly feast? Its not in the Bible. do you celebrate Easter and play with Easter Bunny Eggs? Do you know who Easter is? Do you know the meaning of the eggs? Anyone who reads this, look up the orgin of the pagan god Easter. How about Christmas? do you celebrate Christmas? Do you know the orgins of Christmas? Christmas is the celebration of sun god of all the ancient pagan religions. They always held a festival to the sun god (different names for different cultures) during that time of year. It was the Catholic Church that intorduced it to Christianity so they could absorb the pagans. Do you celebrate Haloween or St. Valentines Day? Please look up the orgins of the festivals and you will see they do not have anything, anything to do with Jesus Christ. I do not just take what I have been told blindly, I have looked these things up.

But how about you emily? Do you go to church on Sunday blindly? have you ever asked why you keep Sunday service? Have you ever asked about the orgins of christmas or easter or haloween or any of the holi(y)days you keep? (Daniel 7:25; Rev 12:9) The whole world has been led astary. Please wake up, ask the questions about your religion. I will ask you the same question you aasked:

Are you willing to look at the information about the (your religion) objectively?  Or have you already said to yourself, I don't wanna hear it, I know it isn't true, I won't believe it?  

(my edit is this: I do not know how often I will be on here so please be patient if you ask a question and I do not respond promptly.)

[Emily]

"Acts 17:24 is refering to a physical temple. God dwells in the spiritual zion, where the feasts of the New Covenant are kept."

I have heard other wmscog members call their churches zion.  So you agree with Acts 17:24, that God does not dwell in physical temples.  Then why do wmscog members point to S. Korea as Zion and say that the "mother god" dwells there.  Where is this "spiritual zion" that you speak of?

In reference to Hebrews 12:22, it would perhaps be beneficial for you to read Hebrews 12:18-24.  The author is making a comparison between the old and new covenants (Mount Sinai and Mount Zion).  To say that the author literally meant heaven in Hebrews 12:22 is to say that the author was referring to hell in Hebrews 12:18.  Psalm 68:17 says that angels accompanied the Lord when the law was given at Mount Sinai.  It is the same with the new covenant here.  It is clear that the Israelites worshiped on earth.  It is also clear that in Hebrews, Christians also worshiped on the earth.  Christians welcome the heavenly Jerusalem with an eye of faith, not literally seeing it.  It could not literally mean heaven since in verse 24, it states that Christians had come to the sprinkled blood of Jesus (see Exodus 24:8 for the sprinkling of blood in the old law).  There would be no need for a mediator or for the sprinkling of blood in heaven.  Why would you argue that your church worships in the "Heavenly realms"?

Please stop with the loaded language.  Physical eyes vs. spiritual eyes.  That is a way for the wmscog to claim that you are deficient in some way, in this case "spiritually blind", if you do not agree with their interpretation of the Bible.  This tactic implies that there can never be any holes in the doctrine, and therefore only defects in the person that doesn't agree.  Can we just look at the text and read what it says?  Where do you draw the line?  If you start attaching "sprititual" meanings to everything, you can make the verses mean anything you want.  That would in no way be productive.

Regarding the holidays you mentioned, no Christian church is going to tell you that if you do not celebrate Christmas, Easter, Halloween, or Valentine's day, you will surely go to hell.  Whether or not people observe them, that's their choice.  No church plays with eggs on Easter Sunday.  That idea is ridiculous.  I personally don't celebrate Halloween and could care less.  If Christmas is the birthday of the sun god then why doesn't your church celebrate the real birthday of Jesus?   

I do go to church on Sunday.  But not blindly.  I go to church on Sunday because that is the day that Jesus resurrected, the day that the Holy Spirit came upon the people in the book of Acts, and because Jesus appeared to his disciples on a Sunday post resurrection.  There is plenty of support for worshiping our Lord on Sunday.  You blindly refuse to believe it.  I will look at information about my religion objectively any day.  I am open to correction if I am wrong but I will not be subject to fear and guilt tactics that organizations use to attempt to gain control over me.  Jesus died on the cross to fulfill the law and give us freedom.  You who continue to reject His grace will continue to be bound by a yoke of slavery.  Galatians 5:1  It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery.

[genny]

This is an interesting conversation going on here.

To DavidsChild and ChildOfZion, if you truly believe in your faith, then I would expect you to live your life according to it's teachings, and it seems you do just that.  Me too–my faith in Jesus influences my whole life.  But it's the same with those suicide bombers we see in the news–their faith influences their whole life.  So because our faith influences our whole life, it's important that our faith be grounded on truth, isn't it?  I don't want to fault you for the way you live your life, but I do hope you seriously consider what your faith is grounded on.

There is one thing in particular I want to address here:

DavidsChild wrote:

Nowhere else on Earth can you find God but in Zion, where his holy feasts are kept (Isaiah 33:20).

Did you know that the WMSCOG does not keep the feasts as correctly as they claim?  They mess up on the dates now and then.  I'd like to know what you have to say about this:

https://docs.google.com/document/pub?id=1MsoweMAuX9TFiNpzg6Oi2d1CERWFyrqwHp183-H_G9U

Why would they keep the seventh-month feasts in the eight month?  Please don't just say that you trust "mother god" and the wmscog to set the sacred calendar dates, and so whatever dates they set must be right.  That kind of answer only shows a blind faith, and we all know we don't want a blind faith, right?

Also, you talked about the many hardships that Ahnsahnghong endured while preaching, and said that no one else could have possibly done all of that except God.  I was just wondering if you have read about any other Christian missionaries and preachers who have also endured incredible hardships?  There are a great many, but here are some of the more famous ones: Jim Elliot, Richard Wurmbrand, Gladys Aylward, Eric Liddell, Amy Carmichael, William Carey, Lottie Moon, Eric Liddell, Hudson Taylor, Corrie Ten Boom….  and those are just a few.  If the ability and willingness to endure severe hardship to spread the gospel was a sign that a person was God in the flesh, then we have an awful lot of candidates for godhood here.  If you have never heard of these people, please look them up.

Thank you for taking the time to communicate here.  Having a dialogue like this helps everyone to understand all sides better.

[ChildOfZion]

Emily wrote:

"Acts 17:24 is refering to a physical temple. God dwells in the spiritual zion, where the feasts of the New Covenant are kept.".  Where is this "spiritual zion" that you speak of?

The question has already been answered.

 

"In reference to Hebrews 12:22, it would perhaps be beneficial for you to read Hebrews 12:18-24.  The author is making a comparison between the old and new covenants (Mount Sinai and Mount Zion).  To say that the author literally meant heaven in Hebrews 12:22 is to say that the author was referring to hell in Hebrews 12:18."

Yes, obviously Paul is making a comparison between the old and new covenants. The old covenant was for the physical Jews, while the New Covenant is for the spiritual Jews. Why would you say that Paul was talking about hell? Clearly he was talking about earth and not hell.. The old Law was procliamed on earth, where as the New law is procliamed from Heaven. Continue reading until the end of the chapter.

 

"There would be no need for a mediator or for the sprinkling of blood in heaven."

 Heb8:5 Actually just read all of Hebrews 8 and you can see that there is an earthly sanctuary and a heavenly sanctuary. Then continue to read Hebrews 9:11 says Christ entered the Heavenly sanctuary, the Most Holy Place, with His own blood. Christ is the mediator in the Kingdom of Heaven, according to the Bible. How can you say that there is no need for a mediator in Heaven? The Bible says otherwise. The Bible does say that Christ entered the MHP in Heaven, not on earth, with the sprinkling of His own blood.

 

"Please stop with the loaded language.  Physical eyes vs. spiritual eyes.  That is a way for the wmscog to claim that you are deficient in some way, in this case "spiritually blind", if you do not agree with their interpretation of the Bible.  This tactic implies that there can never be any holes in the doctrine, and therefore only defects in the person that doesn't agree.  Can we just look at the text and read what it says?  Where do you draw the line?  If you start attaching "sprititual" meanings to everything, you can make the verses mean anything you want.  That would in no way be productive."

Matthew 13:10-17- You can read it all you want, just like the Pharisee's could. You can call it loaded language, that's fine.  But everything does have a spiritual meaning to it. Paul was once Saul. He read the "texts" jsut like all the pharisees, just like you want to, but could not see the Truth. It was not until Christ revealed it to him that he realized the Truth. Then he went to meet with Peter to learn everything that Christ had taught. Only God can open the hearts of people so that they can understand the Truth. No one can read the Truth by themselves and figure out the Truth. Paul is one example. THe Eunich that Phillip babtized is another. The Women Paul met on the Sabbath is another example. Each time, God opened their hearts to respond to the Truth, none of them were able to read the texts on their own and understand Christ.

 

"Regarding the holidays you mentioned, no Christian church is going to tell you that if you do not celebrate Christmas, Easter, Halloween, or Valentine's day, you will surely go to hell.  Whether or not people observe them, that's their choice.  No church plays with eggs on Easter Sunday.  That idea is ridiculous.  I personally don't celebrate Halloween and could care less."     

Well that's just not true. During the Dark ages, if you did not celebrate, or adhere to Catholic doctrine you were branded as a heretic. If you did not keep Christmas, Easter, Haloween or any of their holydays, they DID tell you you would go to hell, and they would help you get there quicker. (inquistions crusades witch hunts etc. And yes Churches do play with Easter egges on Easter Sunday. Why, when I was little the church i used to go to held little Easter egg hunts for the children. You can find vidoes of churches with Easter egg baskets in their sanctuary. last year I saw a christian church decorating for Haloween. (Look up the history of Haloween aka All Saints Day.

The truth of the matter is, is that Catholisim accepted and absobed the pagan holydays, changed their names, and sanctified them to christ. But now the protestant churches still celebrate them. The protestant churches are still following the pagan practices of the Catholic church.

 

"I do go to church on Sunday.  But not blindly.  I go to church on Sunday because that is the day that Jesus resurrected, the day that the Holy Spirit came upon the people in the book of Acts, and because Jesus appeared to his disciples on a Sunday post resurrection.  There is plenty of support for worshiping our Lord on Sunday.  You blindly refuse to believe it.  I will look at information about my religion objectively any day.  I am open to correction if I am wrong but I will not be subject to fear and guilt tactics that organizations use to attempt to gain control over me.  Jesus died on the cross to fulfill the law and give us freedom.  You who continue to reject His grace will continue to be bound by a yoke of slavery.  Galatians 5:1  It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery.

 I also go to church on the first day of the week to celebrate the resurection of Jesus Christ, once a year, to celebrate the day of Firstfruits b/c Christ is the fulfillment of that feast (1 Cor 15:20). I also go to church on the first day of the week, once a year, to celebrate the day the Holy Spirit was poured out on the apostles, to celebrate the feast of weeks (pentacost). But why do you keep Sunday as your weekly day of worship when that day is the Sabbath? There is no evidence, in the Bible, to support that. Even the early Chruch kept the sabbath until false prophets began to teach otherwise around 100 AD (yes it was made official by the Council of Nicea in 321 AD). You have rejected the commands of God and have turned to the traditions of men (Sunday worship, Christmas, Easter, Communion, Haloween etc) I am not trying to scare you or put guilt on you. No where have I tried to do that. Christ did free us from the law of sin and death, and has given us the law of the spirit, The Law of Christ. Those who love Christ will obey Him.

 

Matt 7:21-23 Even Jesus said that confessing that He is Lord is not enough. He will tell those who do not do the will of God away from Him, you who practice LAWLESSNESS. NKJV. There is a lot concerning God's will, Sabbath and the Feasts of the New Convenant being part of it, and the new covenant law.

Mark 7:6-9 I do not want to worship God in Vain. Even though you love Christ, I believe that you do, if you worship Him in accordance with the teachings and traditions of men, you are worshiping God in vain. Everything I see in the churches today are just traditions. Each church follows their own traditions, that's why there are so many differnt denominations and teachings about salvation. But in the end, men's traditions cannot lead us to the Kingdom of Heaven.

[Emily]

ChildOfZion wrote:

 Why would you say that Paul was talking about hell? Clearly he was talking about earth and not hell.. The old Law was procliamed on earth, where as the New law is procliamed from Heaven. Continue reading until the end of the chapter.

Maybe I should have been more clear.  It was an analogous comparison to your literal interpretation of Hebrews 12:22.  The old law was given to Moses from God who was in heaven right?  The new covenant was given to us by Jesus when he was on earth.  How was the new law proclaimed from heaven?

ChildOfZion wrote:

Emily wrote:

"There would be no need for a mediator or for the sprinkling of blood in heaven."

 

ChildOfZion wrote: 

Heb8:5 Actually just read all of Hebrews 8 and you can see that there is an earthly sanctuary and a heavenly sanctuary. Then continue to read Hebrews 9:11 says Christ entered the Heavenly sanctuary, the Most Holy Place, with His own blood. Christ is the mediator in the Kingdom of Heaven, according to the Bible. How can you say that there is no need for a mediator in Heaven? The Bible says otherwise. The Bible does say that Christ entered the MHP in Heaven, not on earth, with the sprinkling of His own blood.

 I meant that once we are in heaven, there would be no need for a mediator or the sprinkling of blood.  And yes I agree with your point about Hebrews 9:11 and Hebrews 9:12 says that he entered once for all.  So again, once we are in heaven, there will be no need for the sprinkling of blood as a sacrifice.  See also Hebrews 7:27.

As far as the sabbath goes, Paul didn't keep the sabbath either.  Yet he says to follow him as he follows the example of Christ 1 Corinthians 11:1.  The wmscog also does not keep the sabbath at the right time.  Your church has also made mistakes in calculating the dates of the feasts.  Why doesn't anyone from your church address these issues?

Regarding Matthew 7:21-23.  Christ's Law was love.  It is clear in these verses:  Romans 13:8, Romans 13:10, and Galatians 5:14 among others.  The driving out of demons and prophesying that the people in Matthew 7:21-23 did not fulfill Christ's Law as stated in the previous verses.  Those people thought that by their works they could earn their way into heaven.  But they missed the whole gospel, which again was love.

That brings me to my next question.  Do you think that if you observe all of the feasts as the wmscog tells you to, that you can earn your salvation?  Can someone who does not show love but contempt for their neighbor (this includes people inside and outside of the wmscog) be saved by following all of your church's rules?

[Sarah2013]

This was a very deep debate, especially the original post where, I quote, “One thing we all have to ask ourselves: Would you believe in the 2nd coming of Christ? Would you have believed 2,000 years ago when nobody else did? When you saw God in the flesh being treated like a scum? Or would you use your own thoughts as well as other’s own thoughts to try not to believe it?”

When Jesus came over 2000 years ago, He didn’t just show up saying “I’m the Christ and I have fulfilled prophecy by showing up and teaching you to observe feasts and sabbaths or works. So believe in me and later I will give you a white stone which will be in human form or the like.” No. He proved He was God, though not all will later believe. His death was no mystery and he physically ascended. Ahang on the other hand is yet to ascend. In these two cases, Ahang and zhang, it is all a bunch of secrets left, right and center. We are angels, we are in the city of refuge, no longer three in one God but FOUR in one God. Jerusalem is now a lady, the Holy Spirit had a secret name, the beast is this, the dragon is that and the woman sitting on many waters is this and that church or the pope. God has a wife who has a son who is also her husband. My…..what a handful church. No wonder I was more confused coming out than going in. Too many abominable contradicting pasts of these so called deity. I don’t know but this whole thing beats carviar and if this is who you reverence as F&M…. Houston, I say we have a problem.

[emil]

Sarah2013 wrote:

This was a very deep debate, especially the original post where, I quote, "One thing we all have to ask ourselves: Would you believe in the 2nd coming of Christ? Would you have believed 2,000 years ago when nobody else did? When you saw God in the flesh being treated like a scum? Or would you use your own thoughts as well as other's own thoughts to try not to believe it?"

When Jesus came over 2000 years ago, He didn't just show up saying "I'm the Christ and I have fulfilled prophecy by showing up and teaching you to observe feasts and sabbaths or works. So believe in me and later I will give you a white stone which will be in human form or the like." No. He proved He was God, though not all will later believe. His death was no mystery and he physically ascended. Ahang on the other hand is yet to ascend. In these two cases, Ahang and zhang, it is all a bunch of secrets left, right and center. We are angels, we are in the city of refuge, no longer three in one God but FOUR in one God. Jerusalem is now a lady, the Holy Spirit had a secret name, the beast is this, the dragon is that and the woman sitting on many waters is this and that church or the pope. God has a wife who has a son who is also her husband. My…..what a handful church. No wonder I was more confused coming out than going in. Too many abominable contradicting pasts of these so called deity. I don't know but this whole thing beats carviar and if this is who you reverence as F&M…. Houston, I say we have a problem.

Super.

You mentioned the word abominable and it rang a bell.

Dan 9:27 – He will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘seven.’ In the middle of the ‘seven’ he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And at the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him.”

Dan 11:31 – “His armed forces will rise up to desecrate the temple fortress and will abolish the daily sacrifice. Then they will set up the abomination that causes desolation.

Mt 24:15 – “Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand),

Daniel had prophesied about the abomination being placed in the temple in Jerusalem. The WMSCOG claims that they are the Jerusalem now and they have the temple. Then let us see what is the abomination in the wmscog temple? Any guesses? Note also how Dan 11:31 talks about the abolishing of the daily sacrifice. Those who are not blinded will understand.

[Sarah2013]

Thanks for those scriptures, Emil. Watch to see the many interpretations, if given, in response to your comment. The bible is very straight forward and clear. What is unclear, that too God reveals in due time. However, like Harry said in another thread which I like: "everthing doesn't have to happen in 5 minutes – take it slow." Wmscog wants it all to happen in 5 minutes and that is not the way of God. There is a time  for everything under the sun. Ecclesiastes 3.