- Topic
Greetings,
Im a member of the church and been so for a almost half a year. Im a content member and I have my reasons for staying, however I have to admit that the church, the way I see it, may not be entirely blameless. Therefore, if anyone is interested in discussing matters involving the church from a member's perspective, ill be happy to try answer your questions with as little bias as possible – as long as you keep it polite of course. However I would like to note that i dont really want to discuss matters concerning the Bible, since I my only knowlegde in that regard comes from the WMSCOG, so I dont think I would be able to say anything you people already didnt hear.
If I may have request, I dont really wish to be associated with FTOS and 144000, because in my opinion too many times they just attack others with weak arguments and I just cant take most of their posts seriously…
thank you for keeping it REAL. very rare…
I used to attend this church for 4 years, then after reading ahns book, finding out they werent married, and have kids from 2 different people(sinners) I had to face reality and leave. It wasnt easy, but it was the real thing to do…
May i ask what is keeping u there…besides sabbath, passover ect.
Thanks, Asmo. In my case, a few contradictions between the one they call God and the teaching of Wmscog is what got me running. Not to mention the divorce track record of deity.
Welcome ๐
I would like to know why do you believe the woman they have on the walls in every zion is God?
I understand why you would believe Ahn was the second coming, there are enough studies about him. But why Zhang?
Also I would like you to pay very close attention next time you're in your zion – notice how much praise is given to "mother" and how much to Ahn.
If you take a closer look, you'll see they praise her waaaaaay more then the so called "second coming". Why is that?
Why is everything being done for the love of mother?
If Elohim means gods, shouldn't they be equally "god"? why is mother more special than father?? After all, he was the one who "restored the passover"…
Let's say it's because a mother is the one who gives life. What life did Zhang give /: |
Well, it won't be long before those precious people start getting pushy and aggressive. Are you preaching, tithing, going on all the services if I may ask?
You may not believe as they do NOW, but if you stay sooner or later they're going to crack you.
It's what they do.
Smurf wrote:
Welcome ๐
I would like to know why do you believe the woman they have on the walls in every zion is God?
I understand why you would believe Ahn was the second coming, there are enough studies about him. But why Zhang?
Also I would like you to pay very close attention next time you're in your zion – notice how much praise is given to "mother" and how much to Ahn.
If you take a closer look, you'll see they praise her waaaaaay more then the so called "second coming". Why is that?
Why is everything being done for the love of mother?
If Elohim means gods, shouldn't they be equally "god"? why is mother more special than father?? After all, he was the one who "restored the passover"…
Let's say it's because a mother is the one who gives life. What life did Zhang give /: |
Overall, i see this as a series of questions that basically asks, "why does WMS believe that Zhang is "God the Mother"?
There are actually a lot of studies about her, that go pretty in depth. The quick interpretation that WMS usually gives is Galatians 4:26, (which is actually not enough evidence by itself), but there are more studies. After reading through most of this website and asking the leaders at the church, i'm still pretty convinced that Ahn and Zhang are the spirit and the bride (that's what side i'm leaning towards, i'm not 100% convinced, but i'm at like 98%)
Since the studies about Mother go really in depth and I don't know them well enough, I can give another reason to believe that she would be our "Heavenly Mother" that might satisfy you.
You said "I understand why you would believe Ahn was the second coming, there are enough studies about him." Since we believe that Ahn was the second coming, we believe that his testimony about the existence of a God the Mother at his last passover. There is picture evidence of it too. Ahn's last passover was kept at a marriage hall, and there was red and blue, and red and blue candles. These are customs that are normal in Korean marriages.
At this passover ceremony, he said that Zhang was God the Mother.
It may seem like a contradiction with what he wrote surrounding the controversy with UhmSooIn, but they say that Ahn wrote what he wrote to prevent any more "false brides." Makes sense that that would be the main motive behind his writing when you think about it.
Uhm went through Ahn's bag, and must have saw something about a plan to reveal a Mother god. Prior to this, Ahn Sang Hong never explicitly said anything at all about a Mother God (publicly)
He did give a hint in his book, "unsealing the seven thunders" in 1955, saying "There is still one more person, she is to be revealed after me"
I'll just point you in the direction of the above website, since it has answers to many questions posed on this website
Sometimes the articles can be written in mean sounding tones… I tried commenting sometimes to tell them that they make unnecesary remarks at the end, which is something Ahn probably wouldn't approve of
Point is, if you are reading any of those rebuttal arguments on that site, please disregard any snooty sounding remarks, because if Ahn Sang Hong was here, he would definitely not approve. And if Mother wasn't so internet-phobic/Anti internet, she would probably read the things and not approve.
What i'm talking about is, at the end of one of their rebuttal statements, they'll SOMETIMES be like "this shows that the person who originally made this claim doesn't know what they're talking about." That's about as bad as it gets, but still, as a WMS person myself, I hate to see that, cuz it's rude… Just disregard anything like that and keep an open mind
There is a difference between rude and stern, brothers and sisters. God rebukes with love, including very stern words, and Jesus himself names people who trample upon pearls, Jesus calls them swine. Who am I to claim anything else than what Jesus spoke?
Theese people here only tell you half the story, do not be so quick to believe them. I reccomend sending a private message to 1004 he can direct you to more secure channels where the internet brothers and sisters can compare notes.
I thought the same way about FTOS and 1004 until I started to read the decietful way theese forum people form arguments, it is a deliberate attack. It is not some "peaceful" "open-minded" consideration of facts.
I used to think that WMS Brother spent too much time arguing here. Then I listened to, I think it was Emil, literally get told that King Tyre was not satan, but he was an angel fallen from heaven. Then she turns around and says "The WMSCOG thinks King Tyre is Satan". I hope it becomes obvious that such a level of stupidity is highly improbably, it is much more likely they do possess basic human intelligence and are deliberately twisting words in order to lie about us.
They have been calling us frauds, using fabricated evidence, takign false testimonies, making assumptions, calling us brainwashed, slandering and lying about it for a long time before any of us preached to them on this site.
Then after we preached to them and a couple members have been doing that since I think 2 years ago, instead of desisting, the forum became more agressive. So you need to know this has been going on for about 2 years, maybe more.
Finally a new member will show up, curious about some things that are available in more studies. But instead of hearing studies in the bible from us, they hear controversies here.
I am here as a witness, the controversies here are no controversies at all, they are mostly badly applied assumptions and strawman arguments set up by the community itself. And where they cannot win there, they will assault you with 20 or more questions at the same time, and if you fail to answer even 1 of them, they will criticize your ability to and brag about how "right" they are. If you start to succeed at explainign something, they will shift the goalposts on you. They use mass confusion and overwhelming information to bury the truth under mountains of slander.
144000 wrote:
Finally a new member will show up, curious about some things that are available in more studies. But instead of hearing studies in the bible from us, they hear controversies here.
I try to be open minded, believe me ๐
But if I have to choose between "We know Zhang is mother, becaus Ahn said so" and Jesus is the only Christ, because the Bible said so… well, it's a no-brainer.
The Bible will always have more authority to me than a man. If you can show me how the Bible (not Ahn!!! The BIBLE!) explains why a middle-aged korean ajumma is the Mother, I'd be glad to leave this site and never return :))
@[email protected]…many of us on this forum are people who were members in the church for many years. We have studied majority if not all of the subjects about mother. There is no need for us to be “preached” to on this website.
The purpose for asking you questions is to get you to think for yourself rather than only go by what the church tells you to think. Why can’t a member think for themselves?
If Ahn is God, wouldn’t he know that someone would go through his bag and reveal such a precious heavenly secret before hand? Seems strange doesn’t it?
If WMSCOG is the true church, how can so many people find the many inconsistencies? God’s truth is perfect. No mere man/sinner can find a flaw in God. Which means that WMSCOG cannot be the true church, but just another group passing themselves off as such. No church knows God’s perfect truth. Do yourself a favor and look at the evidence presented on this site.
Ahn has written 25 books. Has WMSCOG made you aware of this? For one they do not own the copyrights to reprint or publish the other books. For two the other books might contain contradictions to the teachings of WMSCOG. Why wouldn’t they have access to all of Ahn’s books if they are the true church? That shouldn’t be an obstacle to God.
There’s a reason you are only 98% sure. Continue to search and you will find out what’s really going on at the church.
Disturbed
Funny because most of you seem to forget the verses we use and the interpretations in the study we use. I can't count the number of times you people have asked "where is that in the bible?" "what verse says that?". Surely you should know if you claim you already studied it!
"how can so many people find the many inconsistencies?"
Another classic Disturbed exagerration. What Disturbed meant to say was "about a few hundred people out of a million or more worldwide". There are no inconsistencies within the truth, only a few people are confused and exagerrating.
Outside of the truth, there are many non-believers, they are all false-prophets with "different" gospels from among hundreds of divergent and lawless denominations. As Jesus says "Away from me, I never knew you!"
"No mere man/sinner can find a flaw in God."
Shows how much you know.
The Jews and the Pharisees testified that they found several, and they crucified Jesus for it after "proving it" and "insisting" that they were correct. They said Jesus was the one misinterpreting the bible and they believed that they "proved" it. Even when Jesus defeated them in an argument, they still insisted he was wrong like the hippocrits they were, trying to stone him to death, or call the authorities because they wanted to shut down his "cult".
You should listen to the Jews if you like man-made "proof" and hippocritical bible interpretations.
You want to try that statement of yours again?
144000 wrote:
There is a difference between rude and stern, brothers and sisters. God rebukes with love, including very stern words, and Jesus himself names people who trample upon pearls, Jesus calls them swine. Who am I to claim anything else than what Jesus spoke?
Theese people here only tell you half the story, do not be so quick to believe them. I reccomend sending a private message to 1004 he can direct you to more secure channels where the internet brothers and sisters can compare notes.
I thought the same way about FTOS and 1004 until I started to read the decietful way theese forum people form arguments, it is a deliberate attack. It is not some "peaceful" "open-minded" consideration of facts.
I used to think that WMS Brother spent too much time arguing here. Then I listened to, I think it was Emil, literally get told that King Tyre was not satan, but he was an angel fallen from heaven. Then she turns around and says "The WMSCOG thinks King Tyre is Satan". I hope it becomes obvious that such a level of stupidity is highly improbably, it is much more likely they do possess basic human intelligence and are deliberately twisting words in order to lie about us.
They have been calling us frauds, using fabricated evidence, takign false testimonies, making assumptions, calling us brainwashed, slandering and lying about it for a long time before any of us preached to them on this site.
Then after we preached to them and a couple members have been doing that since I think 2 years ago, instead of desisting, the forum became more agressive. So you need to know this has been going on for about 2 years, maybe more.
Finally a new member will show up, curious about some things that are available in more studies. But instead of hearing studies in the bible from us, they hear controversies here.
I am here as a witness, the controversies here are no controversies at all, they are mostly badly applied assumptions and strawman arguments set up by the community itself. And where they cannot win there, they will assault you with 20 or more questions at the same time, and if you fail to answer even 1 of them, they will criticize your ability to and brag about how "right" they are. If you start to succeed at explainign something, they will shift the goalposts on you. They use mass confusion and overwhelming information to bury the truth under mountains of slander.
I know I speak for a lot of people when I say knock it off! Enough with the HATE stuff. You're even going so far as to Bold and underline your insulting ways. Stop NOW! As for the questions you've been asked I still want a real answer to this one. Show me in the Bible where Jesus ever taught about there being a mother god? I state very clearly that you can not do it because it is not anywhere in the Word of God. Either produce this proof or give up this WMS fairytail and accept Jesus as your person Lord and Savior. If this is insulting to you then I am forced to question your intelligence. Time to get real.
@144,000…how many raw nerves do you have left for me to get on? I must be saying all the right things because you say I exaggerate. You’ve called me insane and delusional in other threads. Thank you for showing the current members who come here your true identity. The true God would not allow such hate to be spewed in His name. But because you worship a false god you will represent her well. I wish I had seen your hateful comments while still a member because it would have revealed to me a bit sooner that WMSCOG is not God’s true church. Like I have said before…there is NO love in WMSCOG. I understand we are all humans/sinners, none of us is perfect, but if we are representing God we should do our best. We should represent God in a manner worthy of calling ourselves Christians. If I wanted to come back (which I don’t) I would think twice after the way you’ve spoken to me and others here in this forum.
According to WMSCOG teaching, Jesus was crucified to fulfill the prophecy of being the Passover lamb. But you’re saying the people crucified Jesus after “proving” it and “insisting” that they were correct. So which is it? Did he fulfill prophecy or he was crucified because the people found flaws?
Do you want another opportunity to correct yourself?
Joshua
The jerusalem that is above is our mother. Jerusalem is also the bride of Christ. Theese two verses spell it out plainly, if you don't want to believe it thats your choice but don't say we didn't answer you.
Disturbed
I only use the words in the bible and their pg-13 synonyms to refute your arguments. You are unstable people, I am only repeating what the Apostles and Jesus have already said. No hate, just love for the people who I don't want to be decieved; such as beloved brothers and sisters who have to see this garbage. And love even for you, because you are a victim to Satan's deception.
The answer about Jesus is both. Both are prophesied.
You sure love mainstream teachings and logic though, so go ahead and walk down the broad path, go through the broad gate, you know where it leads.
Enjoy the mainstream interpretations about Christ. Surely the majority of 2.3 christians are going to heaven. There is no harlot, forget about the harlot, you don't need to believe in the bible which says that her people and churches are like the sand by the sea, and everyone got drunk off her teachings.
But that never actually happened in history, right? So what if God prophesied it? Just look the other way. Its safe to believe mainstream churches, isn't it? Its not like churches today disagree about the truth or anything. They are totally consistent and trustworthy!
If you want to believe its okay for Christ to be divided, than you can go ahead and contradict the Bible, your blood is not on my hands.
Stop fooling yourself, before its too late. I pray no brothers and sisters are so easily fooled either.
Asmo, glad to meet you. I hope you find the answers and support you need here.
144000 wrote:
Disturbed
Funny because most of you seem to forget the verses we use and the interpretations in the study we use. I can't count the number of times you people have asked "where is that in the bible?" "what verse says that?". Surely you should know if you claim you already studied it!
When we ask that (and I'm sure I'm speaking for more than just myself), it's not necessarily because we don't know what verses you use, but because
–We want to make sure we are talking about the same verses
–We want the chance to discuss whether those verses say what you think
–We want other readers to know what those verses are
Genny
Nice cover up! You forgot to mention the part were you people always say "That isn't written in the bible!" "I don't know where that verse is, so you must be a liar unless you can show me".
You sure know a lot about us! You must be speaking from a position which has a depth of knowledge about our studies!
The ignorance and assumptions of such forum members is explicitely clear for all to see now.
144000 wrote:
Then I listened to, I think it was Emil, literally get told that King Tyre was not satan, but he was an angel fallen from heaven. Then she turns around and says "The WMSCOG thinks King Tyre is Satan". I hope it becomes obvious that such a level of stupidity is highly improbably, it is much more likely they do possess basic human intelligence and are deliberately twisting words in order to lie about us.
Quick question. What is the difference between satan and an angel fallen from heaven? When you answer that, kindly refer to Ez 28 too.
144000 wrote:
There is a difference between rude and stern, brothers and sisters. God rebukes with love, including very stern words, and Jesus himself names people who trample upon pearls, Jesus calls them swine. Who am I to claim anything else than what Jesus spoke?
Theese people here only tell you half the story, do not be so quick to believe them. I reccomend sending a private message to 1004 he can direct you to more secure channels where the internet brothers and sisters can compare notes.
I thought the same way about FTOS and 1004 until I started to read the decietful way theese forum people form arguments, it is a deliberate attack. It is not some "peaceful" "open-minded" consideration of facts.
I used to think that WMS Brother spent too much time arguing here. Then I listened to, I think it was Emil, literally get told that King Tyre was not satan, but he was an angel fallen from heaven. Then she turns around and says "The WMSCOG thinks King Tyre is Satan". I hope it becomes obvious that such a level of stupidity is highly improbably, it is much more likely they do possess basic human intelligence and are deliberately twisting words in order to lie about us.
They have been calling us frauds, using fabricated evidence, takign false testimonies, making assumptions, calling us brainwashed, slandering and lying about it for a long time before any of us preached to them on this site.
Then after we preached to them and a couple members have been doing that since I think 2 years ago, instead of desisting, the forum became more agressive. So you need to know this has been going on for about 2 years, maybe more.
Finally a new member will show up, curious about some things that are available in more studies. But instead of hearing studies in the bible from us, they hear controversies here.
I am here as a witness, the controversies here are no controversies at all, they are mostly badly applied assumptions and strawman arguments set up by the community itself. And where they cannot win there, they will assault you with 20 or more questions at the same time, and if you fail to answer even 1 of them, they will criticize your ability to and brag about how "right" they are. If you start to succeed at explainign something, they will shift the goalposts on you. They use mass confusion and overwhelming information to bury the truth under mountains of slander.
[removed for rules].
Asmo wrote:
Greetings,
Im a member of the church and been so for a almost half a year. Im a content member and I have my reasons for staying, however I have to admit that the church, the way I see it, may not be entirely blameless. Therefore, if anyone is interested in discussing matters involving the church from a member's perspective, ill be happy to try answer your questions with as little bias as possible – as long as you keep it polite of course. However I would like to note that i dont really want to discuss matters concerning the Bible, since I my only knowlegde in that regard comes from the WMSCOG, so I dont think I would be able to say anything you people already didnt hear.
If I may have request, I dont really wish to be associated with FTOS and 144000, because in my opinion too many times they just attack others with weak arguments and I just cant take most of their posts seriously…
I have no problem with avoiding Bible debates. For me, and having just said the preceding, Jesus says that "by their fruit you shall identify them" (those who are false), this means behaviors not belief systems. As we know from documentation, there are many people that give and/or have given years of their lives or even forfeited their lives for their belief system. Obviously, people believe in these belief systems. The common denominator is the behaviors.
Societally, we know about the power of reciprocity. Machiavellian leaders know that part of taking over citizenry that may not appreciate the force in which they are required to obey will become compliant through the power of reciprocity; the leader provides protection and the citizens comply. This subtle law inherent in mankind has been taken advantage of time and again in religious groups; the doctrine leads people to a salvation path; people are then thankful for receiving a gift/sacrifice/eternal life and thus return the favor – grounded in belief/faith – in the form of loyalty to the group/leader. Suggested reading: "Influence" by Cialdini.
In controlling groups, typically all 8 of Robert Jay Lifton's criteria are present. Incidentally, these criteria are also found in genocides. Suggested Reading: "Thought Reform, the Psychology of Totalism" by Lifton. Shortcut: YouTube videos on the Boston ICC, Moonies, Jehovah's Witnesses, AJ Miller, Jonestown; also see the YouTube channel by Dr. Zimbardo, the HeroicImaginationTV channel. Most members innocently look for differences rather than similarities – would God use the same techniques found in genocides and high-control groups?
Additionally, would God bound our choices for us and limit our thinking? If this prevented us from learning about how our leader conducts him/her self, what does that say about the leader? Why?
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