- Topic
Let’s make this topic the main one discussing/countering WMSCOG main points.
WMSCG Point #1. They emphasizes the plurality of the word Elohim.
Verses WMSCOG use:
– Gen 1: 26 and ask since they are two images of God – Male and Female, if there is God the Father, shouldn’t there be God the Mother?
They also go to Gal 4: 26 to demonstrate that we have a Mother and Rev 19: 7 to show that the wife of the Lamb is heavenly Jerusalem Mother and Gen 3: 20 her role is to give life since all life on earth comes from mothers.
They also use Heb 9: 28 and Rom 5: 14 to show that Ahn Sahng-hong is the last Adam and his here to reveal to us our Mother who will give us spiritual/everlasting life because it is prophesied from Gen to Rev that life is given only by mothers and the one thing men cannot do is give life which is why life on earth is according to heaven and God’s plan – life is given by mothers.
WMSCOG defense for God the Father in Old Testament are;
1. Since men are the head of the family it doesn’t mean the mother is not at home. So from their perspective even though Jehovah used the words “I” “alone” (Throughout Isaiah) doesn’t exclude Mother because just like Adam and Eve are one body, Father and Mother are One God.
WMSCOG defense against <em style=”margin: 0px; padding: 0px; color: #000000; font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 15px;”><span style=”margin: 0px; padding: 0px; color: #800080;”>Problems with the New Jerusalem, the Bride and Women’s Veils</span>
They defend Ahn Sahng-hong writing the book Problems with the New Jerusalem, the Bride and Women’s Veils https://www.examiningthewmscog.com/?p=2032
by saying there is a time for everything, and since it wasn’t the correct time to reveal heavenly mother, Ahn Sahng-hong was protecting the Church. They insist on looking at the bible through prophecies and follow God’s teachings. Also, they add that since Ahn Sahng-hong withdrew the book means there was a meaning behind it.
So let all be civil and use the BIBLE to rebuke and lead everyone here, all around the world to the true God. Lets be peaceful and remember to love each other because God is Love.
Hi Bentovo. Glad you’re here.
<span style=”color: #000000; font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; background-color: #d2efed;”>So let all be civil and use the BIBLE to rebuke</span>
Civil, of course. Use the Bible, yes, but also science, history, math, and logic.
<span style=”color: #000000; font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; background-color: #d2efed;”>all life on earth comes from mothers</span>
Do you mean that in sexual reproduction, it’s the mother that gives birth? That’s because by definition it’s the female that has the egg. If a male made an egg, it would be called a female.
But what about asexual reproduction, when there is only one parent?
And what about animals like the seahorse, where it is actually the male that gets pregnant and gives birth?
No, ALL life does not come from mothers. That’s a simplified statement that children learn until they are grown enough to understand more about science.
<span style=”color: #000000; font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; background-color: #d2efed;”>Since men are the head of the family it doesn’t mean the mother is not at home. So from their perspective even though Jehovah used the words “I” “alone” (Throughout Isaiah) doesn’t exclude Mother because just like Adam and Eve are one body, Father and Mother are One God.</span>
There is a difference between being numerically one and figuratively one.
My husband and I are figuratively one because we are united in goals, parenting, finances, etc., but we are not numerically one. We have two bodies, take two seats on a plane or at a restaurant, and if one of us dies, the other doesn’t automatically die. We are not “one body” numerically.
Neither were Adam and Eve. If Eve were a clone of Adam, she would have been a man. And if giving part of my body to another means we are numerically one body, what happens if I donate my kidney? Am I now one body (numerically) with the receiver?
If a salesman at the door asks my husband if he is alone in the house when I am in another room, which answer is the truth? Yes or no? If he says he is alone in the house, it is a lie.
If “Father and Mother are One God” numerically (not figuratively like a husband and wife), then the wmscog cannot use the word “Gods” for them (which they have done repeatedly), and they cannot use the Hebrew word “Elohim” in a plural sense as they do since they are not numerically plural.
(And if you’d like a Biblical interpretation of what “becoming one flesh” with your spouse means, you can find it in 1 Cor. 6:16. Is this the way “Father and Mother God” are “one”?)
<span style=”color: #000000; font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; background-color: #d2efed;”>by saying there is a time for everything, and since it wasn’t the correct time to reveal heavenly mother, Ahn Sahng-hong was protecting the Church. They insist on looking at the bible through prophecies and follow God’s teachings. Also, they add that since Ahn Sahng-hong withdrew the book means there was a meaning behind it.</span>
So then it was ok for Ahnsahnghong to lie about there not being a “Mother God” because it was not the right time?
Who lies? John 8:44, “You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.”
It doesn’t matter the reason, God does not lie. Therefore Ahnsahnghong cannot be God.
Is seahorse the only animal that males give birth? What animals or plants, or any other lifeforms has single cell organism (unicellular) that are still around living today?
Seahorses, pipefish, and leafy seadragons–the males get pregnant and give birth.
Single cell organisms today? Yes, of course there are many. Think back to your biology class. But I was talking about asexual reproduction, when there is only one biological parent, and unicellular organisms are not the only ones that do that. Here are some examples: http://www.biology-pages.info/A/AsexualReproduction.html
As a matter of curiosity, I got one snail for my fish tank, and sometime later saw many snails roaming around, so I researched… Did you know that some snails are hermaphrodites? They have both male and female organs and can fertilize their own eggs–only one parent!
You have add context, the time period of the old testament was written had male figures as the head and representative of the family. A lot of times people only speak to the husband, but it doesn’t mean the wife isn’t there. Anyway, I was just stating what they teach.
And I was just stating why what they teach is wrong. People may only speak to the husband, but the wife is still there, and they are numerically two people. It would be a lie for the husband to say he was alone if his wife was there with him.
They say Elohim directly translates to Gods-Father and Mother. I don’t think they mean father and mother are numerically one, I think they mean in a figuratively way.
Yes, so if they are figuratively one (united in purpose) but numerically two (the wmscog’s insistence of plural “gods”), that is when there is a conflict with the other verses declaring only one God. The wording will NOT allow a second God that is “one in purpose”.
Consider 1 Tim. 1:17, “Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen.”
and 1 Cor. 8:6, “yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live…”
They also say, both Adam and Eve sinned and ate from the tree, but Adam was credited as the one to be blame in the New testament.
Both Adam and Eve were blamed. Adam is the focus in Romans 5 and 1 Corinthians 15, when the author’s purpose is to show a parallel with Jesus. Eve is the focus in 1 Timothy 2, when the author’s purpose is to address women’s behavior.
They also say Jesus told the disciples not to tell other people that he was the Christ.
For Jesus to “order his disciples not to tell anyone that he was the Messiah” (John 16:20) is different that for Him to “order his disciples to tell anyone that he was not the Messiah.” Do you see the importance of word order?
The second one would have been a request for them to lie, but Jesus said the first one. It was not a request to lie. It was a request not to volunteer information, to let Jesus Himself and His miracles do the talking for the time being.
Before we criticize and say definitively he lied, is the source credible and trustworthy
If you’re talking about my comment that Ahnsahnghong lied, the sources of that were wmscog websites and members themselves, who admit that Ahnsahnghong said in his book there was no “Mother God” because it wasn’t the right time to reveal her, and they say he meant his book to be about the “imposter” Um Soo In.
The same logic applies. If Ahn had only said, “Um Soo In is not Mother God” and then had been quiet until it was time to reveal the “real Mother God,” then he could not have been accused of lying because he believed what he said. But he didn’t say that.
He said, “There is no Mother God.” If he said that when he really believed there was and was waiting to reveal her, then that is lying.
if they did preached false end of times, why isn’t there evidence that you could show them and that will end the discussion right there.
The wmscog does not make their books and preaching materials publicly available. Many years ago, I studied (in person) with a church leader who had a paper showing how the year 2012 was worked out, but of course I was not allowed a copy. Even if I had, they could easily have said that it wasn’t official.
They also said, Jesus first coming was prophesied coming in the clouds, but he came in the flesh.
No, He was not prophesied to “come in the clouds” at His first coming. That is a misinterpretation of the wmscog.
they say the true church has to have characteristics that Jesus taught – Sabbath keeping, feast in 7 times, Baptism.
We have a different idea of what Jesus taught, then. But for sure, Jesus did not teach about a “Mother God.”
They say the grace period is over and now we are in the last days trials and testing, in order to get into heaven you have faith along with deeds. They Book of James to support this.
The Bible is clear that salvation comes by faith alone, and not by works/deeds. James says that true faith is accompanied by deeds, meaning that if you have zero evidence in your everyday life that you have faith, then you should question whether you really have faith.
There is a proper order: faith –> salvation –> good works
Not: faith –> good works –> salvation (or any other order)
If faith + deeds were required for salvation, the question would be: How many deeds? How good do you have to be to get to heaven? Where is the measuring line?
According to the wmscog, it is EVERY command, no matter how small or insignificant it seems. Have you actually read the New Testament paying attention to every command? It would be impossible to keep every command, 100% perfectly, 100% of the time, for the rest of your life. The wmscog has given you an unachievable task.
Thanks for having a conversation with me, bentovo. I’m glad you’ve been open to talking about these things.
Hi Bentovo. Are you still around? I was hoping you’d continue this conversation.
Hi Bentovo. Sorry I’ve been busy with family, but I’m back to answer your points…
The male seahorse does give life, but the eggs are given by the females. So do you agree that the definition of female (produces egg) and definition of male (produces sperm)? God had the power to do whatever he wants, so why did God allow reproduction which females produce egg to give us life?
What does the wmscog mean when they say that all creatures receive life through their mother? Or that physical life is given through our physical mothers? You already said that males cannot give life. Don’t they mean that physical mothers give us physical birth? But with the seahorse, it is the male that gives physical birth.
… Can you have life without mother and father? No, right? God made life this way to show us that we need both parents. Before multi cellular organism (male and female), Adam was first created (unicell), why didn’t God jut clone more Adams?
What do you mean here by multi cellular and unicell? Humans were the last to be created, but there are still unicellular organisms today, and there are still organisms (both uni- and multi-cellular) that reproduce asexually–that means without “fathers and mothers”. God created a variety of beautiful life on earth, with a variety of reproductive methods.
If the wmscog wishes to make their point about a heavenly family and a heavenly mother by creating a parallel with Adam and human families, they should not have overstepped by making the claim about all life on earth coming through mothers. That is a red flag–making claims and statements that are obviously not supported by science or history.
… The fact of the matter is, when you get married, a woman usually takes the man’s last name (family name), right? (Sometimes she hyphenates or keeps her name for popularity).
You must be thinking of your own culture only. That is not the custom everywhere in the world and has no bearing on your argument.
Just because the scripts doesn’t have female image of God, doesn’t mean she isn’t there. Just as the wmscog says just because we preach that mothers give physical and spiritual life, doesn’t mean heavenly father can’t give life. The whole point of “the last adam” sermon was to show adam revealed who eve spiritually was and that in the last days we cannot have eternal life without going to both our spiritual parents.
Again, you already said that males cannot give life, but now you say that a heavenly father can give life. Please decide which you mean.
The Bible does not teach about a “Last Eve” (that was added by the wmscog), but it definitely teaches about salvation coming only through Jesus.
… the church believe in 3 different ages where salvation is given under .
1. Age of the father = Jehovah
2. Age of the Son = Jesus
3. Age of the spirit = Spirit and Bride
You guys keep bringing up Acts 4: 12, but that was 2000 years ago. While we live in the last age, we need to find the God that gives us life in the correct age.
The wmscog may teach that, but the Bible doesn’t. And by the way, the Spirit arrived in Acts 2 (much earlier than the 20th century). And, the wmscog always talks about how things are “just like 2000 years ago.” It is the same with Acts 4:12–it is still the name of Jesus which saves. There was no expiration date for that.
One of the brothers told me that they watched a video about this matter that the New Covenant Passover Church of God keeps using that book to persecute wmscog members. The brother told me that father already wrote about heavenly mother, but one of the members peaked and thought the prophecies were about her.
That just confirms that Ahnsahnghong lied if he already believed there was a “heavenly mother” and wrote about her, and then he wrote a book saying there was no “heavenly mother.”
Can you show me which verse was misinterpreted?
Daniel 7:13 where is says, “…there before me was one like the son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven…”
They say that this is referring to Jesus’s first coming, which was prophesied to be on the clouds but really ended up being in the flesh. This verse is actually showing a heavenly scene with Jesus approaching the throne of heaven on a cloud, happening in heaven not on earth. The Jews expected the Messiah to be “in the flesh” and He was, just not the way they expected.
The church follows Jesus commandments in Matt: 28:19
By the way, did you notice that “name” is singular in that verse and only occurs once? It is “baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit” not “in the names of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit” or “in the name of the Father and the name of the Son and the name of the Holy Spirit.” Have you thought about what that phrase means?
What is the greatest love in the world? The love between a child and her mother.
I know people who would disagree with that.
Thanks again for talking with me, Bentovo. 🙂
How can Ahnsahnghong and WMSCOG fulfill so many of the prophecies (David’s 40 year reign, Restore Zion, restore Passover, Born from the location the bible say second coming Christ will come, keep God’s commandments, open the seven seals). One or two might be coincidence, but what is the chance that he fulfilled all of them like the bible said he would?
He did not fulfill these “prophecies.” These so-called “prophecies” were interpreted by the wmscog (not by legitimate Bible scholarship) so that Ahnsahnghong and the wmscog could “fulfill” them. It is circular reasoning and invalid. If other Bible scholars throughout time also interpreted them in the same way, then there might be something, but they do not.
David’s 40 year reign — It has nothing to do with dividing the number of years two different Messiah’s would preach.
Restore Zion — This is based only on the wmscog’s definition of Zion.
Restore Passover — It was never gone, and therefore it did not need restoring.
Born from the location the Bible says second coming Christ will come — Jesus will not return as a baby to be born again in that way.
Keep God’s commandments — Again, based only on the wmscog’s definition of what commandments need to be kept, and also a salvation based on obedience/works, not based on grace through faith.
Open the seven seals — Again, based only on the wmscog’s interpretation of what opening the seven seals means.
Restore Zion — This is based only on the wmscog’s definition of Zion.
The bible says it that God dwells in Zion, the city of festivals and in the last days everybody would know that he is God
The bible says that God dwells in Zion, the city of festivals and in the last days everybody would know that he is God.
The wmscog defines “Zion” as the church which correctly keeps all the feasts of God mentioned in Lev. 23. And yet they have not kept them correctly according to their own requirements. It then follows that the wmscog is not Zion according to their own definition.
Also, “everybody would know that HE is GOD”? I notice you did not say, “everybody will know that THEY are God (or Gods).” Interesting that you refer to “Father” only and not “Mother.”
Can you show me how to respond to your reply with quotes? When I try it display all those funny letters.
I had the same problem, couldn’t see the html tags until posting, annoying. What I finally decided to do was type out the quotes myself. If there is another way, I’d love to know.
Wmscog church is called Zion. It celebrates God’s feasts and laws.
Other churches call themselves Zion. Other churches say they celebrate God’s feasts and laws, too. Does that make them the “true” church too?
If wmscog is wrong, then why are people in the last days (now) are coming back to Jerusalem Mother which Isaiah 60 and Ahnsahnghong say it will happen? If we are the devil, then shouldn’t the holy spirit of God protect you from wmscog?
That’s the wmscog’s own interpretation of Is. 60.
Talk to Muslims, Jehovah’s Witnesses, and Mormons. They’ll tell you their numbers are growing too. Does that make any of them the “true” church? No. Numbers and growth have nothing to do with whether or not a church teaches the truth.
God lets people do the wrong thing if they really want to. That’s called free will.
By the way, what kind of “protecting from the wmscog” would I need?
People have tried to persecute wmscog
What is your definition of persecution? Is it that people disagree with you and argue with you? Maybe you think they don’t like you?
Does being persecuted mean that a church is the “true” church? If so, what about other religions that suffer even harsher persecution? Are Muslims, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Jews, and mainstream Christians all the “true” church because they are all persecuted?
people are still coming to wmscog, we have ex-Jehovah Witness, Baptist, Catholics, Muslims, Jews.
Mainstream Christianity has ex-other religions too!
Genny, have you read the chapter that covers “7 thunders”?
Yes, I have. What about it?
In Korean Today (like USA Today or Herald Newspaper) it says WMSCOG is the only church that keeps the new covenant Passover. Korea is a nation that persecute wmscog, but they still published that article.
I would like to read it. Do you have a link or any details about it?
The Queens award given to wmscog, as far I know wmscog is the only church that has won it in 2016, the Queen did not give the award to her own church (Church of England).
I believe you have been misinformed. Here are details about the Queen’s award regarding the wmscog: http://encountering-ahnsahnghong.blogspot.com/2017/01/the-queens-award-and-wmscog-fact-and.html
How you read about the Ministry of God the Father and God the Mother?
I don’t know what you mean. Can you explain?
I look forward to hearing (reading) what you have to say, bentovo.
About your links…
#1 “mothersmessenger.wordpress…” — That link has about 10 articles in succession as I scroll down. I don’t intend to write a novel tonight. What exactly do you want me to respond to there?
#2 “pressreader…” and #3 “sgwmscog…” — These are both about the same articles from The Korea Times. The interesting thing is that these two articles are not to be found on The Korea Times official website, whether searching by keywords or by author’s name or even just by scrolling through the archives, not in the English site or in the Korean site. Why is that, do you think? Perhaps they were not actually published by The Korea Times? But even if they were, newspapers report about what is happening in the world of religion, but that does not mean it is proof that the religion is true. If they report about a new Dalai Lama, does that mean that Buddhism is true? No, it is just a report about what is happening. But the question still remains… Why are the articles not found on The Korea Times actual site? Or maybe you can find the link?
#4 “The source of life…” — This article talks about how the Bible supports science (true) and about mothers. Then it makes a leap to talk about “Heavenly Mother.” Just because there are mothers on earth does not mean there is a “Heavenly Mother.” You cannot make that connection unless you already prove “Heavenly Mother” through the Bible.
#5 “Mitochondrial Eve” — This article is about how mitochondrial DNA is inherited through the maternal line. Then it makes a leap to eternal life being given through “the Spirit and the Bride.” There is no connection unless you already prove that there is a “Heavenly Mother.” This article briefly outlines the wmscog’s Biblical reasoning for a”Heavenly Mother,” but it is lacking. The most basic problem is that there is no reason to assume that the “Spirit and the Bride” saying “Come” means that they are giving the water of life and therefore they are both Gods (Rev. 22:17). If that were so, then “the one who hears” is also giving the water of life and is also God because “the one who hears” also says “Come.”
Bentovo so i seen in another thread you said u have a overseer what’s that like someone who you have to ask question about what you should and shouldn’t do someone who tells you what to believe
I don’t always use @ to get your attention because I expect that you just check here to see if you’ve gotten a response, but I will if it helps you. It’s kind of hard to have a conversation with long gaps in between. I hope you are well and that it’s just regular busy-ness keeping you away.
You asked for a list of churches that keep the Passover including foot washing, to refute the claim that “the wmscog is the only church nowadays that follows the new covenant Passover according to the Bible.”
Here are a few (do you want more?):
You asked, “Why did God allow only females to give birth, why not only have all males and have asexual reproduction?”
It is untrue that “only females give birth.” For the seahorse and related animals, males give birth. And there is asexual reproduction for many organisms.
But I think your main question is why do we humans have mothers and fathers and marriage?
God uses marriage to illustrate His relationship with us, His people. Just look through the Bible and see how often God related Himself as a husband or groom and His people (Israel or the Church) as the bride or betrothed.
Here are some examples:
Eph. 5:22-27; 2 Cor. 11:2; Jer. 2:1-2; Hosea 2:16-20; Isaiah 54:4-7; Jer. 3:14,20;
How are you, @bentovo? I hope you will get back to our conversations soon. I’m looking forward to your responses.
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