- Topic
http://youtu.be/fNWi6ADnM7M "beware" cog Garden Grove Cali
http://youtu.be/H1hSZa-68cs Part 1 mother god
http://youtu.be/gpbqwbsbrFg Part 2 mother god
144000 wrote:
The fact is, mind control is a garbage theory that no one has ever provided emperical evidence for. The only thing that comes remotely close to it is how PRISONERS OF WAR were TORTURED. Literally physically tortured. And even then RESULTS VARIED.
I believe I addressed fully that MC is not isolated to POW/torture settings. I will address the point more comprehensively if you ask, 144000. However, as it pertains to "And even then RESULTS VARIED" we need to examine the framing here.
The framing by 144000 is that the results of people AFTER exiting the Chinese/N. Korea/etc. POW "brainwashing" camps did indeed vary. Most, like George (in the non-violent scenario in my previous post), returned to their previous state of thought.
However!
When the framing is the results of "brainwashing" while remaining IN the environment, the results did not vary. People adapt their thoughts and behaviors with what they were taught, and this is consistent with torture and non-torture methods.
Which is why it is so important to keep people in the environment. Which is why Jesus warned of traveling into the wilderness and into the inner rooms.
Also, are you familiar with Dr. Meerloo, 144000? He's the only one I have ever heard use the term "menticide".
144,000, I am impressed that you took the time to conduct research on the internet. The information and references you provided are clear examples of your total devotion to WMSCOG and also your determination to prove the non-members wrong.
I would like to invite you to take the time to read some of the published works of the doctors and researchers you listed; it will provide you with a clearer understanding of cults and how they use “mind control” to gain control of their recruits.
Point 1. You are correct in the definition of “brain washing.” In Robert Jay Lifton’s book: Thought Reform and the Psychology of Totalism,1 the first part of the book is dedicated to the research he conducted in China in the late 1950s with former prisoners who were tortured and brainwashed by the Chinese Communist. His interviews with many of these prisoners validated that although torture and forced indoctrination resulted in obedient prisoners, once released into the free world, most (not all) realized that they had been lied to and manipulated by their authorities. They fell into the category of being brainwashed.
However, in the second part of the book he interviews former communist members who were not tortured or imprisoned; they were strategically recruited into the school of communism. The story of Mr. Hu in Chapter 14 (a new student attending a university) is especially interesting. Although they were teaching communism and the WMSCOG is teaching religious doctrine, the techniques used to gain the loyalty and devotion of their recruits are pretty much the same. This is where Dr. Lifton uses his term “thought reform” and presents further examples of how the minds of these individuals were manipulated without their knowledge. I would be interested to hear what you found similar and what you found different when comparing your experience with Mr Hu’s.
Point 2.In Margaret Thaler Singer’s book: Cults in Our Midst,2 she provides the history of the terms used to describe mind manipulation. Here is how she describes it:
“Today’s programs are designed to destabilize an individual’s sense of self by undermining his or her basic consciousness, reality, awareness, beliefs and worldview, emotional control and defense mechanisms. This attack on a person’s central stability, or self-concept and on a person’s capacity for self-evaluation is the principal technique that makes the newer programs work. Moreover, this attack is carried out under a variety of guises and conditions – and rarely does it include forced confinement or direct physical coercion. Rather, it is a subtle and powerful psychological process of destabilization and induced dependency.” (p.60).
She goes on to write: “When you are the subject of it, you are not aware of the intent of the influence processes that are going on, and especially, you are not aware of the changes taking place within you.” (p. 61). She continues to delve further into the detail of the methods and manipulative tactics that are used to gain the total devotion of the member. If you take the time to read and conduct research to truly learn and gain a deeper understanding of these terms, I’m sure that you will see that you experienced many of these same situations and techniques during your entrance into WMSCOG.
Point 3.You wrote: “Mind control (also known as brainwashing, coercive persuasion, mind abuse, menticide, thought control, or thought reform)
It is all the same”
As I have pointed out in Point 1, brainwashing (which is the word you chose to disassociate any mental manipulation from WMSCOG) is not the same as the others. There are similarities because they all are associated with the mind, but they are distinct and different.
Point 4.You stated: “I appeal to evidence, and evidence testifies that brainwashing theories posed by armchair-psychologists like yourselves are beyond delusional. Mind control is a term used by the ignorant to distract attention from their delusional behavior and abysmal self-esteem by pointing fingers and vilifying someone else.”
Robert Jay Lifton is a famous psychiatrist who has authored many books (I counted 16) as well as professional journal articles. He has served as a professor at Harvard and other colleges and universities. He has been interviewed hundreds of times about thought reform and has been awarded numerous prestigious awards for his writings and research. He is considered an expert.
Margaret Thaler Singer was a famous psychologist (diseased) who lectured and taught at UC Berkeley, UCSF and UCLA. She served on the board at Kaiser Permanente and was a patient advocate because of her ability to examining and re-write patient consent forms so the patients would have a clear understanding of the medical care being provided; she wanted all patients to be well informed. She was an expert witness in numerous court trials, including Patty Hearst and the Jones Town masacar. She is one of the only psychologists to interview Charles Manson. At the time of her death, she had conducted research on brainwashing and thought reform for over 50 years. She also received numerous awards for her work. She was considered an expert.
Neither Robert Jay Lifton or Margaret Thaler Singer are/were “armchair-psychologists”, “delusional”, or “ignorant.” If you are able to produce credentials that place you on or near the same level of education, experience and expertise as these two professionals, I would be willing to listen to your research findings and theories. But if all you are able to produce is your indoctrinated theories from a dead Korean man’s Biblical interpretations and your devoted rhetoric to a woman living in Korea who you claim to be a god, I will choose to side with the doctors and their experience.
- Lifton, Robert J. Thought Reform and the Psychology of Totalism – A study of Brainwashing in China. Second Edition, The University of North Carolina Press, Chapel Hill, 1989.
- Singer, Margaret Thaler. Cults in Our Midst – The Continuing Fight against their Hidden Menace. Jossey-Bass, San Francisco, 2003.
144000 wrote:
Thank you Simon I am glad that my thorough research into the topic has not gone unnoticed.
Have you read at least one of the books written by the authors that you site in your copy paste job? Do it and then talk about "thorough" research.
144000 wrote:
First of all there are no lies, only people that have been fined for slander in the past because they fabricated evidence and witnesses. And before someone jumps in to say "but I know what I learned" I will again remind you that you are in a distinctly tiny and very confused minority whom has misinterpreted what the rest of us understand with crystal clarity.
The lies have already been demonstrated. The wms tax forms speak volumes about that. You have a "righteous lie" teaching. I was there and I heard it.
What percentage of your members leaving because they were treated unfairly, manipulated, lied to, etc would it take for you to consider it a significant enough majority? I suspect that your turnover rate is high but no one will know until your membership records are made public. You didn't answer this question from a previous post…Does the wms subtract from the 1.7 million members when someone leaves?
Btw. This cult says the same thing about its former members around 2:45. http://youtu.be/UpWVitng5ro
144000 wrote:
Your claim that people are learning things against their will hinges on you slandering us by calling it a lie. It also hinges on disrespecting freedom of religion and belief.
It is not a lie if it is true. You guys really need to learn what that word means because you throw it around all of the time with a ridiculous sense of authority when the fact is that you have not proven that any of the documented evidence about your organization is a lie. Other statements that you may claim to be lies are protected opinions and you are free to disagree but it doesn't make it a lie. You are free to believe whatever you want. People disagreeing with you does not interfere with your freedom of religion.
144000 wrote:
Furthermore, and most importantly of all:
My post was not an appeal to authority. It was an appeal to empirical evidence and hard facts.
The fact is, you don't understand what REAL brainwashing is. Real brainwashing involves drugs, threats, or torture. I don't think you understand the severity needed for theese methods to be practical in reprogramming a human mind.
The fact is, mind control is a garbage theory that no one has ever provided emperical evidence for. The only thing that comes remotely close to it is how PRISONERS OF WAR were TORTURED. Literally physically tortured. And even then RESULTS VARIED.
The "empirical evidence" you are asking for is not likely because in order for that to happen, researchers would have to subject people to mind control and coercive tactics on purpose, and that would unethical. But the similarities that former members of various cults that use the same coercive tactics speak volumes, that I'm sure you are more than willing to ignore.
144000 wrote:
I appeal to evidence, and evidence testifies that brainwashing theories posed by armchair-psychologists like yourselves are beyond delusional.
Mind Control is a term used by the ignorant to distract attention from their delusional behaviour and abysmal self-esteem by pointing fingers and villifying someone else.
Members of the wms, like yourself, point fingers and vilify other religions (ex: the RCC is run by satan) all of the time. Does that mean that those members are ignorant, delusional, and have an abysmal self-esteem?
Yeah sure, you know except for the whole APA explicetely stating no emperical facts were found during a fact finding “mission” by a team of top psychologists.
Sure is easy to bash on wikipedia if you neglect to mention that information was drawn from direct and credible sources.
Unless your saying the APA is less informed than your “cult experts”?
It isn’t rocket science, I don’t have to read the book and write a 10 page essay just to say “no empirical evidence exists to support brainwashing”, professionals of a higher calibre than you or me have already done that and posted their results.
At this point you are deliberately neglecting it in order to decieve people.
appeal to authority again 🙂
Also, professionals of a higher caliber have said there is evidence soooo experts dont agree
Wow! I didn't TLDR and I'm glad! So much information.. good thread. =)
Emily is correct: " You are free to believe whatever you want. People disagreeing with you does not interfere with your freedom of religion." <o:p></o:p>
But that is where WMSCOG takes a different road from most religious organizations. The only freedom to anyone in the group is defined by the WMSCOG rules. If a person who has been a member for a long time (or even a short time) decides to leave the group, he/she is labeled as "falling away." The church immediately takes steps to "teach" the remaining members as to why this person should be cut off and ignored by the rest of the members. Isn't it also a freedom to choose who you want to associate with? Why does WMSCOG want their members to spend all their "free time" with only members of the group? In mainstream churches, people leave and choose other churches all the time. The former church does not present defensive reasons to the remaining congregation as to why the former members should be exiled from their lives. Do the current WMSCOG members not see this as control?<o:p></o:p>
I have often thought about the pastors of the WMSCOG and how in reality, they are no different from their neighbors in North Korea. They are controlled. They are told where to live, what to say and who to marry. Their income is controlled because it is distributed to them from the superiors of WMSCOG. Most of them don’t even have children because their time would not be fully invested in the group, so their time is controlled. It appears that “control” is all they know. Is it no wonder they are so skilled at controlling their members?
<o:p>Once again, I encourage the current members to read the books I listed. If WMSCOG teaches the truth, then the books won't cause doubts. Are you open to learning or are you going to be controlled by the WMSCOG rules?</o:p>
144000 wrote:
Yeah sure, you know except for the whole APA explicetely stating no emperical facts were found during a fact finding "mission" by a team of top psychologists.
Once again finding information to support one's stance with complete lack of critical thinking!
144000, are you really so dull as to not understand that in a fact finding mission the members would tell the psychologists that they are happy, no one influenced them, etc., etc.? Newsflash: cult members do what they are told to do. "but, but, but…." yeah, shut up because those psychologists would be outsiders and lying to them would be justified, IF the members were vacillating at all. For the true believers, they would drool all over themselves to prove how great their group is (see youtube post below; I'll give you more if you want).
No one joins a cult. People join causes or for social reasons and they don't know they are in one until they start to question or exit the group.
Did you completely ignore my posts altogether?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MYDV9_wzIVQ Ruth Riddle 3:30-4 minute mark. She says she wasn't "brainwashed".
@144000 – you are conveniently ignoring the distinction Ms Freedom made between brainwashing and mind control.
Will 144000's advice-giver provide him with permission to come out and play?
I believe they realized they are on very dangerous ground and their lack of logical debate would harm their church. Hope many members come and visit and clear their doubts.
Nice on Questioningla. No one intentionally joins a cult. I so agree.
In 2012 Many of the Followers of WMSCOG's church and branch church member about (10000 member) gather in Tudekhel Kathmandu. There Church Member were standing on the number made 144000 each number were filled with saint (church member). the program was about two and half hour. on the Day the Slogan was JERUSALEM TEMPLE CONSTRUCTION FINISHED & 144000 MEMBERS FOUND. Now my Question to WMSCOG is if Jerusalem temple is complete & 144000 is found why are we still in this Old earth we must be in New earth & new heaven. then pastor told well the temple is complete, now it's time to check the building if problem. again told every prophesy is finish we are going with mother alive. If Ahn Shang Hong can die and burry then why can't Zang Zil Die it is very funny. WMSCOG is making people fool they are frightening people of end days and requeting members to earn lots of money. You can see their own building built every where in the world mostly in korea where does the money come from In our church we give WISH OFFERING, SABATH FOOD OFFERING, ZION OFFERING, TITH OFFERING, CONSTRUCTION OFFERING, CONTRIBUTION OFFERING, PREACHING OFFERING, now mostlymember don't give money in above topic So church start saying CONTRIBUTION OFFERING & MATERIAL OFFERING like 10 kg. Rice, 20 Kg sugar, Vegetables etc. I am not writing to blame WMSCOG I my self is a proof and have proof too. So, 2012 is also passed away 2013 is also almost half but soon all the member will know and reaserch every thing. If believer fight each other [removed for rules] from different churches of the world the also government will not any thing in favour to WMSCOG and this fact.
Hello "God my love". You seem to be from Nepal. I am from India. Glad to know you are out of that cult. I think many members on this forum would like to know how the wmscog recruited you. What was their approach and where did they meet you and baptise you?
You could start a new thread and tell us about it. Be careful to avoid mentioning personal details which will help them to identify you since you do not want to be identified.
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